Wheel hop, axle wrap...

[azracer]

Neener neener I have mine already and someone else broke them in for me so they haven't settled an since I put them on. I love them they are about what a Pw offers but much more travel and little or no axle wrap even when running bypass shocks. I love mine!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

AZ did you have to drill out your forward mounting bolt to run them? I'm trying to figure out if they'll fit with my fourth gen with the bushings dom had in them


Sent from Canada

I got mine used but I doubt they require drilling as this is not how Don does things. Call him to get the correct bushings and or instructions from Don. I just don't have any real answer for you on this one, sorry.

[2wagons1driveway]

Neener neener I have mine already and someone else broke them in for me so they haven't settled an since I put them on. I love them they are about what a Pw offers but much more travel and little or no axle wrap even when running bypass shocks. I love mine!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

AZ did you have to drill out your forward mounting bolt to run them? I'm trying to figure out if they'll fit with my fourth gen with the bushings dom had in them


Sent from Canada

I got mine used but I doubt they require drilling as this is not how Don does things. Call him to get the correct bushings and or instructions from Don. I just don't have any real answer for you on this one, sorry.

no worries just found out they just use a different bushing insert for third and fourth gens


Sent from Canada

[TwinStick]

apperantly their pretty bad on the diesels for wrapping/ hopping but a lot of those guys seen to not know about airing down??? Strangely enough..... They say it makes traction higher so axle hop worse?


Trouble is, most of the time when running stock suspension, you also need as much ground clearance as you can get.

[MoparToYou]

I would tend to agree, anything that increases traction should make axle wrap worse.

I'm going to order another OEM Bilstein anti-wrap shock this week, and convert my 2016 from a single anti-wrap shock to dual anti-wrap shocks. There is enough room under the truck to run triple anti-wrap shocks, but I'll start with dual shocks, and see if it makes any difference.

[nts007]

apperantly their pretty bad on the diesels for wrapping/ hopping but a lot of those guys seen to not know about airing down??? Strangely enough..... They say it makes traction higher so axle hop worse?


Trouble is, most of the time when running stock suspension, you also need as much ground clearance as you can get.

Diesel and power wagon springs?? I haven't been airing down and for the last 2 weeks I've been plowing through soft and hard packed snow from 5" to 12" deep. I've experienced minor hop/wrap but I just get on the throttle and it goes away and the truck jumps ahead. And it's mostly the road surface below with ice chunks and potholes. I think it's more of a slow/near stationary issue as sustaining 15-20mph isn't a issue.

I'm not sure how well adding a extra torque (shock) stabilizer will work. If the shocks are valve the same wouldn't they both allow exactly the same amount of travel or movement before stiffing up.

I'm still in the boat that it's a bandaid. There has got to be a better way

[MoparToYou]

Whatever damping one shock provides, two shocks should provide twice as much, and three shocks should provide three times as much. I have my doubts it will fix the problem, but it may help decrease the problem. Ram thought it was going to help, so they put a shock on there from the factory. The way the shock mounts are mounted makes it such an easy mod though, that it is worth trying. All I will be out is the cost of a new shock and the cost of two longer bolts and two sleeves.

[nts007]

Whatever damping one shock provides, two shocks should provide twice as much, and three shocks should provide three times as much. I have my doubts it will fix the problem, but it may help decrease the problem. Ram thought it was going to help, so they put a shock on there from the factory. The way the shock mounts are mounted makes it such an easy mod though, that it is worth trying. All I will be out is the cost of a new shock and the cost of two longer bolts and two sleeves.

Hey no argument. If it works then great!! We won't know anything until someone tries it right.

[TwinStick]

[2wagons1driveway]

Airing down works. It's proven -sand snow or loose gravel. I'm guessing it has something to do with sidewall "rigid ness"

Had the truck out yesterday' in snow in a field nearby with the new 5.13's lol huge wrap!!! But I was at 35psi in the rear still. Going to hope that 20psi resolves it again like it always has.

Front was wrapping/ hopping also... Just to much jam.


Sent from Canada

[Will]

Airing down works. It's proven -sand snow or loose gravel. I'm guessing it has something to do with sidewall "rigid ness"

Had the truck out yesterday' in snow in a field nearby with the new 5.13's lol huge wrap!!! But I was at 35psi in the rear still. Going to hope that 20psi resolves it again like it always has.

Front was wrapping/ hopping also... Just to much jam.


Sent from Canada

Video the front, this is what I've been talking about. The way the front is designed, it can't "wrap", I think our front and the new rear is "power hopping" like a tractor but at a much faster pace. A tractor doesn't have suspension so that rules out ALL of that equation, weight distribution and tire pressure are THE two major factors in it.

[adeluca73]

Whatever damping one shock provides, two shocks should provide twice as much, and three shocks should provide three times as much. I have my doubts it will fix the problem, but it may help decrease the problem. Ram thought it was going to help, so they put a shock on there from the factory. The way the shock mounts are mounted makes it such an easy mod though, that it is worth trying. All I will be out is the cost of a new shock and the cost of two longer bolts and two sleeves.

That's not necessarily true. It depends on whether the springs or dampers are arranged in PARALLEL or SERIES.

In parallel, the equivalent spring (Keq) or dampening constant (Ceq) is: Keq= k1+k2+...kn
In series the equivalent spring or dampening constant is: Keq= (1/k1+1/k2+...1/kn)^-1

[nts007]

He is thinking parallel but I know what you are referring to. There are a lot of forces at work in these scenarios. Vertical lateral horizontal even yaw and pitch. Combined with a shit load of big bushings and the amount of forces it would only take one maybe 2 weakened bushings to seriously upset the balance of the design. So we are sitting on a delemia. With leaf sprung vehicles a type of torque bar or traction bars solves the issue pretty much complete. It even seems to negate wheel hop. Ok that's nice and simple. So now we have a multi link setup that is supposed to kill axle wrap at the cost of excessive wheel hop?? Ok so what. Better shocks? Does the engineering department believe that x amount of wheel hop is perfectly safe and even though it will beat the hell outta the bushings and parts, that's ok cause they will make more money when it breaks. So a $2500 complete rear axle assembly is now what $4500?? Wow. Smart eh

[Will]

Yeah, he's talking about parallel. Twice the shock, twice the dampening effect... In laymens terms, if you have a 10 lb in 1 inch deflection spring, 10lbs is what it takes to compress it one inch, if you have two in parallel, it will take 20lbs to deflect them to one inch.

[MoparToYou]

The spring rate with parallel vs series springs that adeluca73 is talking about doesn't even come in to play. I'm talking about shock damping. There isn't a spring in the shock, I'm just doubling the damping of the shock by doubling the number of shocks. I ordered the shock from the dealer today, along with a Mopar rubber bed mat. They should be in in about a week, but then I need to get it from the dealer, which is 130 miles away. I may make a trip over to get it, or may just wait until they have someone coming this way that can drop it off for me.

[Will]

spring, shock, it all is the same concept, but yeah...

[nts007]

spring, shock, it all is the same concept, but yeah...

Actually no lol. Very different. Let's say a 5" spring with a rate at 300# per inch will only allow 1/2" compression of 150lbs let's say at any impact/shaft velocity. A shock is extremely different because a 5" travel shock will allow 5" of travel at a constant 0.5ips at any weight able to overcome the internal pressure where as a spring would stop the weight.
Kinda a laymans way of describing but the shock design is based on fluid dynamics and I know enough to make an ass outta myself.
But they are different. And you knew that already. And I'm makin an ass outta myself

[adeluca73]

The spring rate with parallel vs series springs that adeluca73 is talking about doesn't even come in to play. I'm talking about shock damping. There isn't a spring in the shock, I'm just doubling the damping of the shock by doubling the number of shocks. I ordered the shock from the dealer today, along with a Mopar rubber bed mat. They should be in in about a week, but then I need to get it from the dealer, which is 130 miles away. I may make a trip over to get it, or may just wait until they have someone coming this way that can drop it off for me.

hmm, well actually it does, the equations for calculating both the equivalent dampening coefficient and equivalent spring coefficient are the same. I posted pictures of springs in parallel and in series, but the math applies equally for dampeners ( shocks). The "spring rate" is calculated from manipulating Hooke's Law, which is K = F/x, and is how much force it takes to displace a spring 1 unit of measurement, and is only applicable for linearly elastic springs, and doesn't apply when springs are extended beyond their linear region.

[nts007]

Remember a stabilizer is evenly dampened and would be a very stiff valving as it need to dampen tiny forces in short shaft movement and has to have an equal dampening in all positions along its length. Shocks are very different as far as how they control movement but the principals are the same

Yet... Some stabilizers are nitrogen charged to create a push in one direction stronger than the other. This is all so confusing. Just double the stabs and let us know if it works

[adeluca73]

spring, shock, it all is the same concept, but yeah...

Actually no lol. Very different. Let's say a 5" spring with a rate at 300# per inch will only allow 1/2" compression of 150lbs let's say at any impact/shaft velocity. A shock is extremely different because a 5" travel shock will allow 5" of travel at a constant 0.5ips at any weight able to overcome the internal pressure where as a spring would stop the weight.
Kinda a laymans way of describing but the shock design is based on fluid dynamics and I know enough to make an ass outta myself.
But they are different. And you knew that already. And I'm makin an ass outta myself

hahaha, ok I'll refrain from trying of being too much of a nerd professor here....BUT, yes you're correct, in that the dampeners (shocks), not the springs, are predicated on principals of fluid mechanics...the traditional shock dampener is actually a viscous dampener, which has a dampening constant, C, but when we model the Equation of Motion (EOM) of the system, we actually use something called the viscous dampening ratio, zeta = c/sqrt[k x m] Why? Well you can't readily measure C, but we can measure zeta, by a method called the logarithmic decrement function, where we measure the oscillatory decay of the peaks of the free vibration response, and calculate the exponential decay across several periods of oscillation. Anyway, cool discussion, I'm sitting here drinking a beer and grading my student's vibrations homework assignment #2, where one problem's I give is nearly EXACTLY this same topic. I give a generic vehicle suspension with standard springs and shocks, and I give them a sinusoidal forcing input function to mimic a washboard dirt road, and ask them to calculate the change in zeta and then C to reduce the system overshoot to ½ the max peak at the end of the first period, my red pen is running out....

[adeluca73]

Remember a stabilizer is evenly dampened and would be a very stiff valving as it need to dampen tiny forces in short shaft movement and has to have an equal dampening in all positions along its length. Shocks are very different as far as how they control movement but the principals are the same

Yet... Some stabilizers are nitrogen charged to create a push in one direction stronger than the other. This is all so confusing. Just double the stabs and let us know if it works

it's the difference between emulsion vs. standard shocks. The nitrogen is to reduce fade from heat dump into the oil which causes cavitation in the oil, and loss of ability to dissipate heat, which causes the system to fade, and loose effectiveness.

[MoparToYou]

I find it interesting that this picture of the Ram 2500 rear suspension shows a plain black painted kicker shock.

A Power Wagon, however, has a yellow Bilstein shock with a blue shock boot in the same position as that plain black shock. So one has to ask them self, "self, is there any difference in damping between the Bilstein kicker shock and the plain black kicker shock?" Also, is Ram using a steering stabilizer shock here, that is very stiff, and damped equally in compression and extension? Or are they just using a generic Bilstein suspension shock, that will typically have far more compression damping than rebound damping. When I get the new shock I'll at least try and see if it has equal damping in both directions, although I'm pretty sure I'm not going to be able to push the shock shaft fast enough in either direction to be able to say.

Based on that picture, it looks like there are basically three ways to decrease axle wrap with this suspension. 1. Change the mounting points of the control arms on the axle, so there is more leverage on the axle to hold it in place, and not let it wrap. 2. Change to control arms that don't have giant 3" diameter soft rubber bushings. 3. improve the function of the anti-wrap shock absorber to try to reduce axle wrap. The first two are complicated and expensive, so I'm going to try #3. These would be separate from any improvements that may come from changes in tire pressure, etc.

[nts007]

Hey here is a thought. A person could easily make up a slightly longer version of this mount. Say 1 to 1 1/2" longer AND could put different mounting holes in it. See what kind of change you could get. This also makes it look like a person could very easily with out welding to the axle install a V style 4 link and remove the upper control arms and make a real 4 link here. Just throwing it out. I'd personally make a multi position mount and try that too. Being able to bolt to the axle

[nts007]

Imagine being able to remove the rear track bar.....

[Will]

spring, shock, it all is the same concept, but yeah...

Actually no lol. Very different. Let's say a 5" spring with a rate at 300# per inch will only allow 1/2" compression of 150lbs let's say at any impact/shaft velocity. A shock is extremely different because a 5" travel shock will allow 5" of travel at a constant 0.5ips at any weight able to overcome the internal pressure where as a spring would stop the weight.
Kinda a laymans way of describing but the shock design is based on fluid dynamics and I know enough to make an ass outta myself.
But they are different. And you knew that already. And I'm makin an ass outta myself

now you're just over thinking it, it's all the same, you can push, pull, suspense, control, twice as much with both of your arms as you can with one of them, right? All I was saying is, yes two shocks that are equal can dampen twice as much force as in two springs that are equal can support twice as much. Use whatever words you want, but it all boils down to the same...

[Will]

Hey here is a thought. A person could easily make up a slightly longer version of this mount. Say 1 to 1 1/2" longer AND could put different mounting holes in it. See what kind of change you could get. This also makes it look like a person could very easily with out welding to the axle install a V style 4 link and remove the upper control arms and make a real 4 link here. Just throwing it out. I'd personally make a multi position mount and try that too. Being able to bolt to the axle

I think v style 4 link conversion is an excellent idea