ABS BS

Will · Post by **Will** » Mon Apr 10, 2017 12:36 pm

Brakes started acting weird, the pedal would drop suddenly at the top of the press and then work fine (almost like one pulse of the abs kicking in). This happened maybe 3 times in a day. Then the abs light comes off and on a few times while making a dinging sound. Speed didn't matter. No engine codes, just blinking light and a ding or two. By the end of the day Friday, light stays on constantly. No blown fuses. Saturday, I strip the entire front down on both sides and get to the abs sensor to realize they have 5 sided hex screws (allen screw but 5 instead of 6). New one on me, I have nothing to take them out with. Brakes look fine, bearings feel great, nothing that I can visually see. I unplug all sensors, disconnect the battery, clean everything, regrease the brake slides and put everything back together and same issue. Light is on, the truck will stop faster than you want to. The pedal didn't give a pulse the rest of the weekend. I don't know if it's bad sensors, pump, or what it is. I don't mind the light staying on but the dinging and flashing will get your attention. Any ideas? 2010 with 160K miles, both front wheel assemblies have less than 25k miles on them.

Post by **DamageWagon** » Mon Apr 10, 2017 2:34 pm

Your front ABS sensors should have standard hex head socket screws. If they don't, that's very odd. In all of my bit sets I don't have a 5 sided pentagon bit. They exist but are a special security bit and are usually a positive head (you would use a wrench instead of an Allen key). Are you sure about that? Next time you are in there I would remove them with vice grips and replace with normal screws, and see what things look like inside the bearings.

When I got my ABS light on out of the blue it was a failed wheel bearing. Pulling the ABS sensor revealed metal flakes inside the housing. This is a possibility for you. This is why I grease my bearings through the ABS hole now. I believe I remember reading something like this on Dodge Talk or RamForumz and it was the ABS pump or motor (separate?). There might be information on those sites. Best of luck man, I hope it's cheap and easy! Are your wires running from the bearings to the frame frayed or damaged?

Sent from my safe space

nts007 · Post by **nts007** » Mon Apr 10, 2017 3:35 pm

Pull the abs fuses. It's junk anyway. Pull apart dash and remove abs bulb. Don't need that either. Blaa

Lol. Story of my life....

I'm holding a front wheel bearing abs sensor in my hand and the screw is a standard Allen key.

Shaved Ice · Post by **Shaved Ice** » Mon Apr 10, 2017 4:26 pm

If you like the option of steering during emergency braking, DO NOT disable your ABS, make sure it works. I have done offensive driver's training in cars with ABS. We performed a series of maneuvers, pulled the ABS fuse, and performed the same maneuvers. Drastically better with ABS. Think self preservation and liability.

nts007 · Post by **nts007** » Mon Apr 10, 2017 5:33 pm

When abs nearly kills you more than once then the tune changes. Although I would agree that most drivers are unable to release the brake pedal in an emergency situations. Abs is useless on gravel and in snow. And mostly useless on icy conditions where one out of 4 tires is on ice. Even though the other 3 are on tractable surface abs kicks in and on you go. Driver training shouldn't even count when only on asphalt. Hell one of our trucks abs is so bad right now that any speed under 15kph while braking it comes on. Every time you touch the pedal. No matter the surface.

Retired BLM Rig · Post by **Retired BLM Rig** » Tue Apr 11, 2017 12:31 am

Will, start by getting or borrowing an ABS compatible code reader.
I assume the front sensors came with the new unit bearings 25K ago, that's why the bolts are odd. I hate aftermarket parts, seems like they always come with some kind of surprise.

Speculation: It could be an internal bypass occurring inside the master cylinder and the ABS module is seeing a pressure differential between the two halves of the system and turning on the light. Again, reading codes is the best place to start
Sorry to hear your truck is

Shaved Ice · Post by **Shaved Ice** » Tue Apr 11, 2017 4:26 am

nts007 wrote:When abs nearly kills you more than once then the tune changes. Although I would agree that most drivers are unable to release the brake pedal in an emergency situations. Abs is useless on gravel and in snow... Driver training shouldn't even count when only on asphalt...

I agree with driver training including all surfaces. Mine did include everything except snow. Kinda scarce in South Carolina. Snow isn't an issue in the parts of South America and the Middle East I worked in so the course didn't address it. The instructors covered the benefits and problems with ABS. We also practiced releasing the brake pedal if ABS isn't present like you mentioned. Their is even one maneuver we learned that only worked if you disabled the ABS. Ultimately, we were taught to ensure our vehicles had working ABS as it helped more than it hurt in most situations, but also to know where the fuse was to disable it. Ideally, rig a kill switch for it.

nts007 · Post by **nts007** » Tue Apr 11, 2017 9:28 am

Being that every vehicle is equipped with abs pretty much knowing how to utilize it in situations where it can help is good. I took many driving courses back in the early 2000's and the first thing was abs gone in all the instruction vehicles. We were taught vehicle dynamics at higher speed where intrusive abs would kill you. On the flip side I have driven some newer cars that have a far more intelligent system and as long as you're on pavement it's not a problem. But I also wouldn't drive those cars daily and defiantly not on gravel and snow/ice.

Simply the systems in these vehicles are to save us from ourselves. And help the 'entitled' drivers live a little longer. But in 25 years of driving there is not one time I have ever had abs kick in and said 'ohh good abs is here to help me'. It's always come on and been a problem. Especially in the trucks. You can feel your braking power right to the point when it's taken away by the abs.

I'll send you down some snow though fed ex but there is a chance it might arrive in a liquid state!! Good debate though!! Pros and cons to everything

nts007 · Post by **nts007** » Tue Apr 11, 2017 11:33 am

Just to add, in skid recovery courses touching the brakes was an automatic fail back then anyway

Post by **DamageWagon** » Tue Apr 11, 2017 11:43 am

It would be nice to take one of these courses. They had them for our fire engines at a nearby regional center. They had a perfectly flat concrete pad with borders that they would submerge in water, you would drive the engine through it at speed to learn to recover from a hydroplane. Drifts, emergency avoidance, lots of good stuff but I never got to go.

Sent from my safe space

Shaved Ice · Post by **Shaved Ice** » Tue Apr 11, 2017 4:25 pm

It sounds like the courses vary so much based on what they are trying to teach versus where you are going to drive. Mine were set up by USSOCOM and centered around the offensive and defensive driving of civilian rental cars in combat / terrorist attack scenarios. It sounds like nts007's training involved larger vehicles in non-combat scenarios but a wider degree of weather extremes.

Unrelated for operational training, one of my favorite courses was an advanced sportbike rider course I took on my Harley.

YouTube · Post by **OffroadTreks** » Tue Apr 11, 2017 4:37 pm

Shaved Ice wrote:It sounds like the courses vary so much based on what they are trying to teach versus where you are going to drive. Mine were set up by USSOCOM and centered around the offensive and defensive driving of civilian rental cars in combat / terrorist attack scenarios. It sounds like nts007's training involved larger vehicles in non-combat scenarios but a wider degree of weather extremes.

Unrelated for operational training, one of my favorite courses was an advanced sportbike rider course I took on my Harley.

Those are being offered for contractors too.

nts007 · Post by **nts007** » Tue Apr 11, 2017 7:19 pm

Shaved Ice wrote:It sounds like the courses vary so much based on what they are trying to teach versus where you are going to drive. Mine were set up by USSOCOM and centered around the offensive and defensive driving of civilian rental cars in combat / terrorist attack scenarios. It sounds like nts007's training involved larger vehicles in non-combat scenarios but a wider degree of weather extremes.

Unrelated for operational training, one of my favorite courses was an advanced sportbike rider course I took on my Harley.

You are mostly right!! 18wheelers at one point. I also took a 30hr course at the track for up to 400hp chassis cars..the good ole days

At least nobody was shooting at me. I have the utmost respect for the armed forces members.

Will · Post by **Will** » Wed Apr 12, 2017 7:37 am

Will · Post by **Will** » Wed Apr 12, 2017 7:39 am

I guess the bearings could be getting bad but they're smooth, quiet and zero play.

nts007 · Post by **nts007** » Wed Apr 12, 2017 9:33 am

Will that is the worst manufactured Allen head screw I have ever seen!! 1,2,3,4,5.........

Will · Post by **Will** » Wed Apr 12, 2017 9:37 am

nts007 wrote:Will that is the worst manufactured Allen head screw I have ever seen!! 1,2,3,4,5.........

No shit, that's why I took a picture, I knew nobody would believe me.

Bill2014 · Post by **Bill2014** » Wed Apr 12, 2017 9:39 am

That's a Penta head tamper resistant bolt...

Will · Post by **Will** » Wed Apr 12, 2017 9:40 am

Wires are not chaffed, if I pull the fuse, it starts dinging about the trailer brakes. This morning, it would feel like the abs was activating when I first started rolling around the driveway, no gas barely rolling. Passed 5 mph, it acts fine.

Bill2014 · Post by **Bill2014** » Wed Apr 12, 2017 9:48 am

It's hard to believe that one of your unit bearings is bad already - with such low mileage on them...

Post by **DamageWagon** » Wed Apr 12, 2017 10:47 am

That's stupid. Who does that? A pentagonal bolt head? "It is dangerous for you to access your bearings."

My bearing that just went was quiet, and had no play almost two months after metal shavings screwed up the ABS sensor. I couldn't check if it was cold though. I would recommend SKF bearings. You can get them on Amazon for a good price. They are also NAPAs house brand and are just a little more money then Amazon. Not saying the bearing is your problem though.

I did not get ABS chatter ever with my bad bearing. It sounds like something else. ABS Pump/ Motor maybe? Any luckier being your symptoms on dodge talk?

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nts007 · Post by **nts007** » Wed Apr 12, 2017 10:48 am

That is a moog replacement wheel bearing will. Chrysler uses a proper Allen key. Moog is the only one we know of that used that stupid bit

Will · Post by **Will** » Wed Apr 12, 2017 11:56 am

Apparently if you go to town and stop at 473 red lights, it fixes itself. Ha. Dammit. No more light. Been turned off and on many times.

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coder · Post by **coder** » Wed Apr 12, 2017 1:00 pm

The required tool is a 5 point torx bit socket, torx bits come in both 5 and 6 point styles.

Post by **DamageWagon** » Wed Apr 12, 2017 1:14 pm

This is the removal tool for that style of fastener. Hell, it's probably the installation tool too.

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