About to pull the trigger on a 15 PW, need some advice!

[PWRider]

It's not about temperature. You have big difference in speed between transmission and engine. You torque converter is essentially hydraulic pump/motor combo. You push forward by building pressure on the pump side. To build pressure you need speed differential. Higher load requires higher pressure hence higher speed. At some level you most likely reaching such difference in speed that computer barfs at you to stop. Unfortunately they didn't set up specific warning, so it flashes something else to scare you off. On the other hand If transmission fluid reached dangerously high temperature it will start loosing viscosity resulting in similar behavior. Temperature sensor or not. "Id doesn't matter what you look like, it matters what you do". Computer may assume sensor is faulty and throw error based on behavior, circumstantial evidence.
You have 4:10 R&P which exacerbates this problem. What speed are you going at 1500 RPM?

Once you run at higher RPMs torque converter locks up. Engine drives transmission directly. Those problems go away.

[Reloaderguy]

I think OP should just be happy the traction control didn't come on.

[Low_Sky]

If this fault is really temperature related, my guess would be tripping off of temperature rate. If the temp is coming up faster than expected during normal operation, maybe the truck is programmed to throw a fault so that if something is wrong you catch it before it reaches dangerous temps.

I'm just spitballing, and I'm probably wrong.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[OffroadTreks]

I guess I don't understand as well as I thought I did. What would you recommend for long, sandy hills? For example http://www.motortech4x4.co.nz/user_file ... 20Hill.jpg
I run into stuff like this no matter where I go in my area. Even aired down to 20-30 PSI, If I try in 4LO, I don't have enough momentum, and I'm digging in as soon as I start. I need 4HI to build up enough speed to carry me, but at the top I'm going under 15 mph. This has given me the error message in question also.

Not drive a 8000,lb vehicle up sand. Buddy buried his PW up to the rocker panels over at Imperial Sand Dunes. That's just me. I don't pretend I have a Raptor. Just joking around here.

A sandy hill is 4Hi and a lot of speed. 4Low and a crawl is you buried in the hill. Well depending on the sand, that's all another topic. I assumed we were talking about a steep dirt/rock hill.

I'm surprised that you would keep having issues without the dealer being able to resolve the problem. When you consider how many are built, and you are the only guy with this unusual weird problem, maybe it's time to consider it's a lemon?

[adeluca73]

What error code does your DTC throw. The codes are stored for 50 ignition cycles. To view them cycle ignition on/off, on/off, on w/ in 5secs & you'll see the error codes.

Is it P0702, P0710-P0714 : these are tranny errors

Or is it P0744, P1834, P1864-1870: torque converter error?

[nfb]

Uhhh, don't know, but me think power brake is tripping a fault condition sensor , that's apparently not temperature related...
Has it ever faulted on you w/o doing the power brake deal?

It has. The first few times happened without power braking at all. Just mild, and I mean MILD off-roading. I don't know if any of you have driven the Rio Puerco trail in Albuquerque, but I'm talking about a hill smaller than the one you have to climb to reach the trail head there. I was told there were no DTC codes, and when I hooked up my bluetooth obd scanner, there were none listed. I will check this afternoon using your method though.

You can go plenty fast in low range if you can stand the noise. Theoretically you can get to about 55-60 flat out. 30-40 not a problem you can do that all day long. Getting up that hill is a bear not because truck lacks power but because it will hop you to death somewhere past half way up.

Page 487 of my manual states to not exceed 25 mph in 4LO.
I've been going about 5-10 while power/torque braking. I thought that would be enough to simulate a load, but not so slow as to put undue stress on anything other than the brakes. I've been researching it, and the opinions vary by who you ask. Guys who take their stuff to the track will tell you that 1500 rpm at a full stop is perfectly fine. Others will say that doing it even momentarily can cause some very serious problems. I've never power braked before. I don't even like gunning it from a stop, much less trying to do burnouts or find the limits of a vehicle's capabilities.

Not drive a 8000,lb vehicle up sand. Buddy buried his PW up to the rocker panels over at Imperial Sand Dunes. That's just me. I don't pretend I have a Raptor. Just joking around here.
A sandy hill is 4Hi and a lot of speed. 4Low and a crawl is you buried in the hill. Well depending on the sand, that's all another topic. I assumed we were talking about a steep dirt/rock hill.
I'm surprised that you would keep having issues without the dealer being able to resolve the problem. When you consider how many are built, and you are the only guy with this unusual weird problem, maybe it's time to consider it's a lemon?

Haha I wish I could avoid the sand. I live in the desert dude. I gotta drive through 10 miles of sand to even find a rock. I am working on a lemon case actually.


I think we have gotten a little off topic here. Power braking is not how I discovered this problem. I was asked by the Ram tech to try it, and it triggered the warning. Based off the fact that he suggested I try it, and that he was surprised it triggered the warning, I assumed it was not overly rough on the truck. If it happened every time I had tried it, or even at around the same temps then I would assume that I was doing something wrong. But since it is so inconsistent, I don't think that is the case. After more research, I can see how prolonged torque braking at high revs is a no-no. But that does not solve the original problem. I live in the desert. I play in the desert. That means sandy hills. I'm not trying to go 70 mph and ramp dunes, or pretending I'm in a Raptor. I'm just trying to cruise over some little hills to get to the fun stuff. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_NPKqyG ... tml5=False This is a video of someone going up the same hill that I have gotten the error on before. The video is old, so the hill is a little more eroded now, but still nothing crazy. Too steep and sandy for 2wd, 4LO digs in too much. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uQ_F0xI ... tml5=False This is similar to what I'm dealing with. Short run ups with soft sand. I've never pushed the PW that hard actually.

I will not be power braking anymore

The only reason I did it more than the one time is because no one at the dealer has given me a definite cause of the problem, and every fix has been a shotgun attempt. I want to ensure this is fixed under warranty. I would hate to believe that it is fixed and find out 2 weeks after my warranty expires that it wasn't. So yeah, I'm being a little rougher on the truck than I would normally.

[RustyPW]

Rio Puerco. Our forum founder Leif lives out that way. He, and Silverwagon (Carlos) do those trails. I'm familiar with the area. My stepson lives in Farmington. Driving in soft sand. You need 4Hi and speed to keep from digging down. AT tires work better then MT tires too. MT's dig, where the AT's won't.

The way you describe how you are doing power braking is NOT doing any harm to the tranny. Anyone who says differently is full of shit!

[PWRider]

I'd make them replace tranny fluid at this point.

[adeluca73]

I'd make them replace tranny fluid at this point.

F'it, I'd demand a new tranny & torque converter & all associated sensors.

[nfb]

Update:

The PW is still in the shop for the 5th official attempt to fix this same issue. They still have no solutions to offer. Since I have met my state's requirements for a Lemon Law case after the 4th attempt, I chose to file with the National Center for Dispute Settlement requesting a replacement vehicle. My hopes are not high because of how sporadic this problem is, and the reputation the NCDS has for ruling in favor of Chrysler. I do have a pretty solid packet built including all serve invoices, pictures, and a memo chronicling the problems I've had, so we'll see. If they do rule against me, I will still have the option of filing a small claims suit. At this point I don't see a whole lot of other options. Without them knowing exactly what the problem is, I won't feel confident with any fix they offer. Without pulling the entire transmission and inspecting it, I think it would be next to impossible to know if there is any micro-trauma that might cause premature wear or failure.

[nts007]

Rio Puerco. Our forum founder Leif lives out that way. He, and Silverwagon (Carlos) do those trails. I'm familiar with the area. My stepson lives in Farmington. Driving in soft sand. You need 4Hi and speed to keep from digging down. AT tires work better then MT tires too. MT's dig, where the AT's won't.

The way you describe how you are doing power braking is NOT doing any harm to the tranny. Anyone who says differently is full of shit!

Rusty you are not correct. Doing a brake stall/torque stand in itself is not the direct issue. It's the time spent. Every time you do this you will exponentially increase the torque converters heat the longer it is held. Even if the tranny sensor isn't reading it at that moment it most definatly is. Now if you were say on it for 5-6 seconds on a stock converter sure it can "handle" it. But sitting for 30-45 seconds!! No way. That is the start of the end of the torque converters life. The stock converters ARE NOT THAT STRONG!! Diesel guys wreck them all the time. Boosted launches. It's the heat generated and the fact that the internal impeller blades are trying to force movement and can easily bend inside.

The odd brake stand isn't going to do much. But that time duration heats it up really fast. Just do a search on power braking and torque converters.
For nfb at this point I really hope he gets somewhere. Even a new tranny would be nice. I would fight and don't let them push you around. They will have to do something for you but less likely vehicle replacement. Get a new gtranny and see if they will give you lifetime warranty no mileage limit. That's what I would push for. Good luck bud.

[RustyPW]

Rio Puerco. Our forum founder Leif lives out that way. He, and Silverwagon (Carlos) do those trails. I'm familiar with the area. My stepson lives in Farmington. Driving in soft sand. You need 4Hi and speed to keep from digging down. AT tires work better then MT tires too. MT's dig, where the AT's won't.

The way you describe how you are doing power braking is NOT doing any harm to the tranny. Anyone who says differently is full of shit!

Rusty you are not correct. Doing a brake stall/torque stand in itself is not the direct issue. It's the time spent. Every time you do this you will exponentially increase the torque converters heat the longer it is held. Even if the tranny sensor isn't reading it at that moment it most definatly is. Now if you were say on it for 5-6 seconds on a stock converter sure it can "handle" it. But sitting for 30-45 seconds!! No way. That is the start of the end of the torque converters life. The stock converters ARE NOT THAT STRONG!! Diesel guys wreck them all the time. Boosted launches. It's the heat generated and the fact that the internal impeller blades are trying to force movement and can easily bend inside.

The odd brake stand isn't going to do much. But that time duration heats it up really fast. Just do a search on power braking and torque converters.
For nfb at this point I really hope he gets somewhere. Even a new tranny would be nice. I would fight and don't let them push you around. They will have to do something for you but less likely vehicle replacement. Get a new gtranny and see if they will give you lifetime warranty no mileage limit. That's what I would push for. Good luck bud.

Sorry, but I got to disagree with you. The way is is describing how he is doing it, is not damaging the tranny. I've played around with too many trannys when I was racing. I'll leave it go at that.

[nts007]

With racing it is completely different. You have a finite lifespan and rebuilding components is expected. What I'm saying is not that he caused irreparable damage today. But continuing with that pattern will significantly reduce the life of the converter and tranny fluid. Think of it as adding water to a cup. Eventually it can't hold anymore. The 66rfe is a big cup. The converter is a weak link. Heat is the enemy and doing 4wd brake stands for half a min will cause a lot of heat in a very short time. I'm actually surprised he didn't see a overtemp spike to 200+ degrees doing that. Something is defiantly up with his setup. I have done brake stands for under 5 seconds and I've seen a 30-50° temp increase in that short of a time. I don't dispute that you have done it and had few ill effects. I just trying to reinforce that doing something like that on a recurrent basis will cause premature failure. My 06 545rfe burned out at 45k miles. I did a fair bit of off roading and brake loading like a tool. Then used it to tow for a bit. Nothing like 5hrs of highway in 3rd gear pulling 9k lbs

[RustyPW]

Yea, nothing like pulling a 10,000 lbs camper over Eisenhower and Vail passes to go rocking crawling in Moab and fishing at Lake Powell.

[nts007]

Yep that does it too lol. But at least with towing the converter is locked up. Then it's all on the tranny

[OffroadTreks]

Gremlins. Problem solved. Your welcome.

[RustyPW]

Yep that does it too lol. But at least with towing the converter is locked up. Then it's all on the tranny

Think the converter only locks up in 4th and 5th in a 3G.

[RustyPW]

Gremlins. Problem solved. Your welcome.

Got to use those little guys for target practice.

[nts007]

Gremlins. Problem solved. Your welcome.

Got to use those little guys for target practice.

3,4,5 in the 545rfe and in the kick down gear it stays locked normally.
66rfe can lock up in 2-6 just like the 68rfe.

Yep that does it too lol. But at least with towing the converter is locked up. Then it's all on the tranny

Think the converter only locks up in 4th and 5th in a 3G.

Don't feed em after midnight

[nfb]

UPDATE:

Got the PW back on Saturday morning. They apparently flew a tech from a Chrysler plant down here to test drive and diagnose the problem. I wasn't really involved or made aware of much, and I think that may be due in part to my submitting a lemon law claim through the NCDS. All in all they had the truck about a month straight, and the final opinion after all was said and done was a bad PCM. Which I mentioned to the service rep from day one. Anyways, they put 150 test miles and then let it idle for half an hour to verify their fix.

I decided that I don't want to use the powerbrake method to test it out. On a seperate note, I did powerbrake the rental 1500, harder than I did the PW and saw no error message or anything out of the ordinary. But with the PW I figure even if it isn't fixed, until I see it under typical driving conditions, I'm not going to chase it. So on Sunday I took it to the desert to play. I was lazy and left the tires at 65 psi, so I was digging in on every little sandy hill. But I ran through 2WD, 4HI, 4LO, and 4LO with the rear locked on a few hills. Of course there was spine-crumbling wheel hop, and the transmission temp got up to 190 at the end, but no warning lights, no nada. After all that I took it on some hard packed roads with a few rocks and obstacles, and everything worked great


Up side is that I finally have a working PW. Down side is I have nearly a thousand miles of test drives on it, and who knows what kind of damage this ordeal caused. First plan of action is a transmission fluid and oil change followed by some paranoid driving for next few thousand miles. Chances are the lemon law claim will be thrown out, so I'm planning on making this fat girl last as long as possible.

I just wanted to say thank you to everyone for following this shit show and for all the input and advice.

[Colibri]

I'm glad they finally got you squared away man. I hope you get to enjoy your new truck for many trouble free miles!

[RustyPW]

I'm glad they finally got you squared away man. I hope you get to enjoy your new truck for many trouble free miles!

2X's

[Reloaderguy]

Celebratory brake stand is required.

[adeluca73]

Oyé Vé

[Jimspw]

Really sorry to hear that about the trans light. In this day and age with all the electronics I sometimes crave my old 1970 Chevelle with my 454 Ls6. I bought my 15 PW and now have 32k on it. I love it. I bumper pull a 11500 38foot open range camper all over the country. I guess I have been lucky, the only mods I did was a muffler delete so I can hear hear my engine and shift points (old school) and I installed no drill Firestone 5000 airbags to accomidate the 1200lb hitch weight. I also swapped the factory 285/70/17 duratracs after 30k for Bridgestone at ko2 315/70/17. The Bridgestone are E rated so thicker sidewall and of course wider. This, according to and verified by Dodge changes my towing capabilities to that of what a similiar ram 2500 non power wagon would be- 15k towing 3300 payload but with all the off road capabilities of the pw when unhooked. I drive a lot of desert trails in Arizona and Colorado and except for the width as compared to my previous jeep I love my pw.