Help with Shocks please

[Powerwagonmark]

No I was not running bumpstops or limiting straps. So whats the point of spending money on aftermarket leaves? I could just put a block under the stock PW leafs and been done with it. If soft leafs don't last if you use them and stiff leafs don't flex then stock PW leafs are best. Why would I spend my money on Carli or Thurens leafs just to replace them every 6 months to a year.

I am waiting for Don to call me back. Also just got off the phone with local offroad shop Just Jeeps and they said they have never heard of the every year replacing leaf springs they said they have leafs in there jeeps for 10 years that have sagged only a little. I also called Deaver and they said the same thing.

[Cactus Red]

I'm talking about rock crawling...

It destroys springs.

These are from '03 on the Matrix off Table Mesa Rd.

[azracer]

Negative arch on any spring including the OEM spring will ruin the positive arch and take on a new arch as a result.

Thuren long travel springs allow for tons more droop (up to 17" total travel W/O damage or issue) but the up travel needs to be limited to the original dimension or close to it.

IE: Lift your PW 2.5" over stock height and the upper travel bump stop should use a spacer of 2" to 2.5" (4" should get a 4" spacer) to prevent excessive negative arching. You can leave the stop where it is but expect a loss of ride height over time as a result if the spring is placed in an excessive negative arch condition often or for hours at a time, like for photo session or at an off road display show. If it were mine I would just flex it to a maximum (like in your photo) when needed for trail use otherwise just don't do the negative arch flexing when there is no legitimate reason to do so. Rock crawlers have gone to a more expensive and more complicated coil over shock configuration to avoid this very issue your having.

Droop or wheel extension is not an issue at all for the Thuren LT spring. There are many issues and changes that need addressed for lifting anything over a 1" on a PW (3" OEM 2500).

[Powerwagonmark]

OK so if I get new leaves I should extend my bumpstops by 4" and put limiting straps correct? Sorry guys just frustrated don't mean to sound like an ass.

[azracer]

OK so if I get new leaves I should extend my bumpstops by 4" and put limiting straps correct? Sorry guys just frustrated don't mean to sound like an ass.

No limit straps needed for the rear as they are only used to protect the shocks, brake lines and such from over extension. Should not be an issue on a leaf spring setup for the rear on your truck with the mods you have done to allow for droop. The leaf spring is not loaded when at full extension so if the shock is not topped out you will be fine as it will not push and try to take apart the shock like a loaded spring would. With the King shocks topped out in a crawl or jump with major airtime is not an issue that would need a limit strap for a leaf sprung truck as the spring is fully unloaded and will not push the axle down any further than gravity will let it.

Front suspension needs limit straps though to prevent springs from becoming loose, drive line bind and other such issues. However if you are at 6" total lift (4" PW) you need to limit up travel in the front too. You can just do 4" block or you can cycle it to see if you get coil bind. To be honest I thought the BDS 6" kit came with that stuff. You need to prevent coil bind on a coil spring but as long as it has no issues including coil bind you will be fine on the front as it sits with the addition of a limit strap though.

Ken

[RustyPW]

Here's a thought. What about Carli LT air bags. I have them on my PW.

[vanished]

What is meant by negative arch? Anything beyond its normal static position? If so I would be disappointed as well and also would have never thought about damaging the springs playing around.... how many hd trucks do you see pulling equipment trailers every day? I am not trying to be ignorant but maybe I'm learning too!

Sent from my C771 using Tapatalk 2

[TrueCowboy426]

What is meant by negative arch? Anything beyond its normal static position? If so I would be disappointed as well and also would have never thought about damaging the springs playing around.... how many hd trucks do you see pulling equipment trailers every day? I am not trying to be ignorant but maybe I'm learning too!

Sent from my C771 using Tapatalk 2

Center of spring below straight line from eye to eye of the springs = positive arch, center of spring above eye's = negative arch.

So yes, guys that overload their trucks, potentially put them into negative arch. That's why I run air bags on all my tow rigs, and my PW. I'll see if I can find a pic of my 02's springs. They look like a sideways S, from being abused for so long.

If you zoom in on this pic I took of Marks truck, you can see the left spring is starting to negative arch pretty good, and it's not fully articulated yet. I never really paid attention when we where there, but I see it now. Right spring drooped right out like it should.

[azracer]

What is meant by negative arch? Anything beyond its normal static position? If so I would be disappointed as well and also would have never thought about damaging the springs playing around.... how many hd trucks do you see pulling equipment trailers every day? I am not trying to be ignorant but maybe I'm learning too!

Sent from my C771 using Tapatalk 2

Hmmm?

Positive arch = ) ----------Smile (No load empty)
Flat = __ -----------------Grimace (Heavily loaded)
Negative arch = ( ---------Frown (Flexed)
The more negative you go the less positive arch will remain after it tries to return to ride height.
Towing has nothing to do with it unless you are using a 6" lift and riding on OEM bump stops.

Best I can do for a description anyone can help if they want!

[MSparks909]

Sorry that you're having so much trouble with your leaf springs. To keep my Carli's as positively arched as I can for a while, I'm going to buy some Timbren helper springs to use when towing and get my buddy to fab up some bumpstop spacer's like Mark has to move the rear bumpstops down an inch. Does anyone know how much Carli leaf springs lift the rear over stock PW leaf springs? Or are they the same height?

[azracer]

Sorry that you're having so much trouble with your leaf springs. To keep my Carli's as positively arched as I can for a while, I'm going to buy some Timbren helper springs to use when towing and get my buddy to fab up some bumpstop spacer's like Mark has to move the rear bumpstops down an inch. Does anyone know how much Carli leaf springs lift the rear over stock PW leaf springs? Or are they the same height?

about 3/4 of an inch an you should be OK without.

[vanished]

Gotcha! and thanks for the clarification...

That's what I was guessing, but even with mine fully flexed I can't get my springs negative (without a load on the truck) as they won't even hit the bump stops (usually ~2" unless i'm not 'fully' flexed)... I didn't realize how much softer Marks was and the comments above do make sense. Guess you learn something new every day Does suck for Mark however..

[MSparks909]

Sorry that you're having so much trouble with your leaf springs. To keep my Carli's as positively arched as I can for a while, I'm going to buy some Timbren helper springs to use when towing and get my buddy to fab up some bumpstop spacer's like Mark has to move the rear bumpstops down an inch. Does anyone know how much Carli leaf springs lift the rear over stock PW leaf springs? Or are they the same height?

about 3/4 of an inch an you should be OK without.

Good to know Ken. Thanks for clearing that up.

[MSparks909]

Do you still have your BDS leaves Mark? I'd consider putting them back on until you can come up with a good solution.

[Powerwagonmark]

Do you still have your BDS leaves Mark? I'd consider putting them back on until you can come up with a good solution.

I sold them awhile ago

[Skyd Ram]

No I was not running bumpstops or limiting straps. So whats the point of spending money on aftermarket leaves? I could just put a block under the stock PW leafs and been done with it. If soft leafs don't last if you use them and stiff leafs don't flex then stock PW leafs are best. Why would I spend my money on Carli or Thurens leafs just to replace them every 6 months to a year.

I am waiting for Don to call me back. Also just got off the phone with local offroad shop Just Jeeps and they said they have never heard of the every year replacing leaf springs they said they have leafs in there jeeps for 10 years that have sagged only a little. I also called Deaver and they said the same thing.

Adding 4" blocks the stock leafs without extending the bumpstops would most likely have the same results. Leaf springs are simply thin pieces of tempered steel. They will always have a limit at which they can bent before they will not return to their original state. Adding 4" blocks to the PW leafs would also result in bigger increase of the already problematic wheel hop that these trucks exhibit. About the only way to get the type of articulation that you want without dealing with leaf spring fatigue or a lot of wheel hop would be to convert the rear suspension over to a 5-link or triangulated 4 link and run some long coilovers or some type of lever system for the shocks.

Carli's leafs are considered to be an all around solution by offering some lift, ride improvement, and added travel while lessening the wheel hop and still having a decent towing capability and long life. For their 4" rear leafs I still suggest that customers run their bump stop drop brackets so that they don't run into tire/bed contact, shock over-compression, and leaf fatigue. These are not needed for the standard leafs since they only lift most trucks .5-1".

[Powerwagonmark]

That's great So who offers a 5link or 4 link triangulated for the rear??? This is fucked parden my french. I am so frustrated and confused right now I am thinking of getting rid of this PW. I am sick of ugrading parts then upgrading again and again. I am not looking for a damn rock crawler just a PW with a little more flex and a little more capable. Sounds impossible from what I heard so far. I feel like I have reached the limit with this truck and I am getting to the point where spending money on the same thing 3 times all the time is making me want to sell. I should have got a jeep for half the money and I would have had a full on rock crawler by now. I am so pissed off right now I don't know what to do and to top it all off I have left Don emails and voicemalls for 2 days and he hasn't called me back. Sorry for the rant guys just really frustrated.

[Powerwagonmark]

Just got off the phone with Carli and they said there is no way there springs will fail and there is no way I will be able to negative arch them like some where saying. They said if Don doesn't correct the problem they will work with me on a custom setup with custom leaves, custom Kings all around, hydro bumpstops. If after \I do this and my truck doesn't work the way I want it's going on the clasifieds for SALE

[Pit Slave]

Just got off the phone with Carli and they said there is no way there springs will fail and there is no way I will be able to negative arch them like some where saying. They said if Don doesn't correct the problem they will work with me on a custom setup with custom leaves, custom Kings all around, hydro bumpstops. If after \I do this and my truck doesn't work the way I want it's going on the clasifieds for SALE

First dibs IF all that is added Carli wise stays!

[Cactus Red]

That's the reason I sold my trail beater. I had 16K in repairs above and beyond the original 12K I spent (including the $2500.00 on the '87 Toy PU) building a dcent trail rig.

It's a decsision you'll have to make - I decided to avoid the continuous repair cost, and live with a very capable mildly modified Power Wagon and a mildly modified Jeep Rubicon. While I can't do some ofthe things I used to, we can do 90% of them, and enjoy not breaking and repairing stuff all the time.

[Powerwagonmark]

That's the reason I sold my trail beater. I had 16K in repairs above and beyond the original 12K I spent (including the $2500.00 on the '87 Toy PU) building a dcent trail rig.

It's a decsision you'll have to make - I decided to avoid the continuous repair cost, and live with a very capable mildly modified Power Wagon and a mildly modified Jeep Rubicon. While I can't do some ofthe things I used to, we can do 90% of them, and enjoy not breaking and repairing stuff all the time.

I didn't think that I went overboard when building up this truck. I just wanted to make it a little stronger and make it better offroad. I was willing to sacrifice towing and weight load capacity. I know I can't have both. Hopefully Don can figure this out or else I am going to spend all my money I have in my savings account to do a custom Carli setup. If that doesn't work PitSlave is going to get one hell of a deal on one hell of a truck

[azracer]

Just got off the phone with Carli and they said there is no way there springs will fail and there is no way I will be able to negative arch them like some where saying. They said if Don doesn't correct the problem they will work with me on a custom setup with custom leaves, custom Kings all around, hydro bumpstops. If after \I do this and my truck doesn't work the way I want it's going on the clasifieds for SALE

I'm sure he told you the reason they will not negative arch is because they are more rigid and will not compress as much (IE: far less wheel up travel). But they should be able to provide you with shocks, drops for the bump stops and springs that will do the best compromise possible for your truck. It will now tow well too. I question Hydro bumps on a dedicated rock crawler as those are more for high speed bottoming out control and as a rule not used for low speed crawling. Planing to go fast too are we? Hmmmmm?

I got Timbrins for my truck for when I tow as the Thuren springs are just too soft for any real hauling or towing. I'm at 3" lift and don't have the negative arch issue like you will with OEM bumps and a 6" lift. I was after a soft compliant ride with the ability to go fast on fire roads and do moderate trail rides... not exactly the same thing you were after. Thats also a thought you could use timbrins and set them for a 6" lift so it would in effect extend your bump stops 4 more inches and have a little give to them, Just a thought is all.

I'm confident Carli will handle this perfectly just so long as you are very thorough about what you want and don't want out of the truck. Remember there is no setup that does everything so you must compromise in some areas to have modest ability in other areas, so only compromise where you really must or you will not be happy.

I know for sure Don is real busy I sent him an e-mail and it took 3 days to reply and his reply while apologetic for the delay was short and to the point as if he really did not have time to reply. I know he has dealers who stock his stuff now and he has to keep up with the demand or else. I also bet he is called Atlas to see what if anything they can or will do to take care of your issue and is likely waiting for their reply before he gets back with you.

I honestly don't see an issue with using 4" drops to stop axle up travel when you will effectively do the same thing with the stiffer spring. Whatever works for you I guess, for me I like the softer ride and will use Timbrins for the heavy loads. Thats why there are so many ways to skin cats or so I'm told anyway

KP

PS: Can we add a spell checker button to this forum?

[Skyd Ram]

That's great So who offers a 5link or 4 link triangulated for the rear??? This is fucked parden my french. I am so frustrated and confused right now I am thinking of getting rid of this PW. I am sick of ugrading parts then upgrading again and again. I am not looking for a damn rock crawler just a PW with a little more flex and a little more capable. Sounds impossible from what I heard so far. I feel like I have reached the limit with this truck and I am getting to the point where spending money on the same thing 3 times all the time is making me want to sell. I should have got a jeep for half the money and I would have had a full on rock crawler by now. I am so pissed off right now I don't know what to do and to top it all off I have left Don emails and voicemalls for 2 days and he hasn't called me back. Sorry for the rant guys just really frustrated.

Currently no one offers a 4-link although Pure has some ideas fo rthe future. The biggest problem with this idea is the huge gas tank that is in the way.

BTW- I invited Dan from Carli to stop over here and say hi and clarify some things.

[OCVeloman]

Just got off the phone with Carli and they said there is no way there springs will fail and there is no way I will be able to negative arch them like some where saying. They said if Don doesn't correct the problem they will work with me on a custom setup with custom leaves, custom Kings all around, hydro bumpstops. If after \I do this and my truck doesn't work the way I want it's going on the clasifieds for SALE

I'm not sure what sponsor rules are here but I'm only here to clear things up, not push product. I am the one you spoke to at Carli and want to clarify as it seems our conversation was taken out of context. The point I was attempting to convey was that Don is a top tier suspension provider as are we and you should explore that avenue before writing his product off. I'm sure he will do whatever it takes to ensure you're happy.

When asked about the Carli Springs, we discussed both the full spring pack and long travel pack with shackles. I said when setup with our rear King shocks and a hydro-bump setup, there is no way to negative arch them as the bump stops will prevent this from happening. When we spoke, I was unaware you were running his 4" springs in the rear, not his 1.5". My understanding was that you had a 4" BDS lift (4" of lift over factory 2500 4x4 height, not 4" over powerwagon height) setup with Don's 1.5" springs in the rear. This all makes much more sense now.

As for working with you on a setup, I recommended our long travel leaf pack, our Kings and hydro-bumps. It is a custom engineered setup, as is every Carli suspension, but there was nothing more custom about the recommended setup that we offer to any other customer with the same goals. The only difference is the long travel springs/shackles are "Custom Order" and take longer as we do not stock them.

Further, regardless of spring manufacturer (assuming as little spring rate as your have and no bump stops), you're setting yourself up for failure running leafs. If you want that much travel and control in the rear and aren't carrying anything, perhaps a coilover/4-Link would better suit your needs.

I hope this clarifies the above!

[GunniPWguy]

Just got off the phone with Carli and they said there is no way there springs will fail and there is no way I will be able to negative arch them like some where saying. They said if Don doesn't correct the problem they will work with me on a custom setup with custom leaves, custom Kings all around, hydro bumpstops. If after \I do this and my truck doesn't work the way I want it's going on the clasifieds for SALE

PWMark, just trying to be a passive optomist here so please don't take it the wrong way. you have made some major advancements in mods and upgrades to that rig. I bow down to it. I can understand how you are pissed about some high dollar leaf springs not standing up to some full on flexing. I would be way bent out of shape too. Time to sit back and take a look at the big picture. It is a part that wears out. If you have to get some new leaf springs then so be it. Go back to some stockers and still have one bad ass truck at the end of the day.