Help with Shocks please

[Powerwagonmark]

Ok guys so some of you know that I am having problems with my trucks rear end sagging. The rear is alomst 3" lower then the front of the truck this has been happening over time.. At this point I don't believe that it is Thurens leafs or shackles I am thinking it's my BDS shocks with over 60000kms on them. My question is if it is the shocks that is causing the sag will new shocks fix the problem or will this happen again because of how soft Thurens leafs are? Will I still need to put a bock in? Or am I better off cutting the lower shock mounts on the axle and relocating them to the top of the axle which should gain me a couple of inches. What shocks would you guys recommend for flex I don't do any high speed stuff just slow crawling. I want long travel shocks that are soft yet strong and won't fade and NO I don't have enough money for Kings What is the best shock for my needs? Any ideas from the would be great.

[SilverWagon05]

I've been wrestling with this very same question myself. I'm not quite ready for new shocks, until late this year or early next year, but trying to decide soon. Most experienced crawlers that I've talked to, swear by Fox, especially if you're not needing/wanting the race bred design, or cost of Kings. I do a mix of crawling and high speed, but am currently leaning toward Fox.

[Powerwagonmark]

I have also been looking at the Fox shocks. As of rite now I am leaning toward either Fox 2.0 with reservoir or the Bilstien 7100s.
http://www.foxracingshox.com/product.ph ... ref=filter

I like the fact that the Fox 2.0 with reservoir can be upgraded with the CD Adjuster upgrade with 8 clicks of compression adjustability from soft to hard. The only problem is it's an extra $120 per shock for the adjuster upgrade.
http://www.foxracingshox.com/upgrades.p ... ref=topnav

[06powerwagon06]

Mark I don't think it's your shocks. The shocks are there to absorb the opposite reaction of the spring pack. Basically if you didn't have shocks then everytime you went over a bump the truck would keep bouncing. The shocks are there to absorb that bounce and not take the load of the truck. I really do think that it is your spring pack that has settlled more than Don thought it would plus they are super soft progressive packs. I would try a block first before replacing the shocks. There are a lot of guys on here that have way more than 60K on their shocks and they are fine. Mine had 140k on the originals before I swapeed them. Or even source out some true 6" springs for the rear. Ultimately if you want to get new shocks then go for it but I don't think they are the issue here. Just my 2 cents. Let us know what you end up doing.

[SilverWagon05]

Mark I don't think it's your shocks. The shocks are there to absorb the opposite reaction of the spring pack. Basically if you didn't have shocks then everytime you went over a bump the truck would keep bouncing. The shocks are there to absorb that bounce and not take the load of the truck. I really do think that it is your spring pack that has settlled more than Don thought it would plus they are super soft progressive packs. I would try a block first before replacing the shocks. There are a lot of guys on here that have way more than 60K on their shocks and they are fine. Mine had 140k on the originals before I swapeed them. Or even source out some true 6" springs for the rear. Ultimately if you want to get new shocks then go for it but I don't think they are the issue here. Just my 2 cents. Let us know what you end up doing.

X2 I didn't mention that in my previous response. The shocks are not going to raise your ride height. If you recall on the leaf spring thread over on DT, it was brought up, that Don no longer had full packs available, due to quality issues he was having with Atlas. He never told me exactly what issues he was having, but did confirm this. Maybe this was the issue he was having? It may not even be a quality issue. As soft as they appear to be, sagging, after a lot of use, would be understandable. I know that my factory leafs have settled a lot and I'm in the same situation as you, just not as extreme. My rear end sits about an inch lower than my front end now. When I originally put my lift (5" front spacer, 3" rear block) 5 years and 50K miles ago, the truck sat completely level.

[Powerwagonmark]

So what are my options??? Do I put in a 2" or 3" block and deal with axle wrap. I don't want to add those trailing arms because they would just be getting hung up on rocks. I am too used to the amount of flex these leafs have and don't want to sacrifice any flex. What should I do?

[TrueCowboy426]

I don't know if Don would recommend this, but could you take them out and get them re-arched again? I know they will just settle, but maybe if there was enough arch put in they wouldn't settle out as far. Other than that a block (I really don't like them) or add more leafs/new leafs is about all you can do.

[Ken G.]

Mark, just to give my .02, I don't think re-arching those springs will answer the mail. I used to have an old '74 CJ-5 that i had the springs re-arched for. It lasted only about 2 months and then they sagged even worse. It'll weaken them, too. What about adding a leaf or two from your former OEM spring pack? It may be just a bit stiffer and maybe lose a bit of flex, but it would probably level you back out. Just a thought. Hope you get a real solution soon.

[Cactus Red]

Coming from a rock crawling background, springs were in essence expendable if they had huge amounts of flex. I used up three sets of All Pro leaves on my trail beater dual t'cased, dual spooled, flatbed exo-caged Toyota in 55K. That was on a lightweight rig too boot!

I suspect from seeing your pictures that you routinely arch the springs negative to get that much stuff, and that kills springs faster than anything else.

If the Thuren pack is no longer available, you can have Deaver build you a set to your specifications.

Mark

[azracer]

Coming from a rock crawling background, springs were in essence expendable if they had huge amounts of flex. I used up three sets of All Pro leaves on my trail beater dual t'cased, dual spooled, flatbed exo-caged Toyota in 55K. That was on a lightweight rig too boot!

I suspect from seeing your pictures that you routinely arch the springs negative to get that much stuff, and that kills springs faster than anything else.

If the Thuren pack is no longer available, you can have Deaver build you a set to your specifications.

Mark

X2
When I saw pictures of your truck flexed I thought to myself my goodness don't waste the springs just showing what it can do as it is far better and less often that you will need that much flex. Although I still wanted to see the shocks bend to see what is causing it when you flex it. You have an extreme amount of rear flex in that rig and that is likely why you now have an extreme amount of spring sag.

[Powerwagonmark]

Coming from a rock crawling background, springs were in essence expendable if they had huge amounts of flex. I used up three sets of All Pro leaves on my trail beater dual t'cased, dual spooled, flatbed exo-caged Toyota in 55K. That was on a lightweight rig too boot!

I suspect from seeing your pictures that you routinely arch the springs negative to get that much stuff, and that kills springs faster than anything else.

If the Thuren pack is no longer available, you can have Deaver build you a set to your specifications.

Mark

So are you guys saying the springs are done? Can I just get away with using a block?? Will they sag even more eventually?
X2
When I saw pictures of your truck flexed I thought to myself my goodness don't waste the springs just showing what it can do as it is far better and less often that you will need that much flex. Although I still wanted to see the shocks bend to see what is causing it when you flex it. You have an extreme amount of rear flex in that rig and that is likely why you now have an extreme amount of spring sag.

So are you guys saying the springs are done? Can I just get away with using a block?? Will they sag even more eventually?

[Cactus Red]

Yeah, unfortunately, I think the springs are toast.

[Powerwagonmark]

Yeah, unfortunately, I think the springs are toast.

Are you kidding me. Thurens leafs are very expensive. So how do I get soft leafs that flex as well as the ones I have but last long??

[GunniPWguy]

You need to make your PW into a swivel frame!

[MSparks909]

Sell your Thuren leaves and buy a set of 4" Carli leaf springs. These leaf springs are the ones that they pair with their 6" Dominator lift kits. I love my Carli's.

[Cactus Red]

If it was my $$$, I'd contact Thuren and see what he has to say about the springs. If they have lost 50% of the original lift, I'm of the opinion that they have failed.

[azracer]

Unfortunately in the world of leaf springs... Negative arch placed on a positive arch spring will cause sag (every time!).

That said a stiffer spring like the one Cali markets will last longer but will not flex as much until they are near their end of life and begin to sag that is.

Limiting the maximum flex to only times when forced to use it can extend the life of the spring. Blocks may help for a short time but over time that setup too will sag if placed in a negative arch often enough.

Putting one #2 leaf from your OEM PW spring may net you some life out of what you have w/o dealing with blocks and wheel hop.

I know I'm not sharing any good news but to flex like you can there will be a price to pay.

I don't think they were defective, I think you just didn't realize you had a six shooter and... well... um, ran out of ammunition demonstrating your trucks abilities. All leaf springs (and coil springs to some extent) have a finite number of maximum flex cycles before they become weak and sag. Just pure physics is all not defective IMHO.

Ken

[GunniPWguy]

Sucks that the leaf springs are only there to support the load for so long. Time to think outside the box. I am going to say it again. Mainly cuz I think it would be innovative, unique, and Awesome (and I dont have the kahones to do it to my truck) fab up some kind of a quick release frame disconnect with a center bar on bearings and Turn it into a swivel wagon! Then you can articulate until the cows come home!

[pdavey]

Sucks that the leaf springs are only there to support the load for so long. Time to think outside the box. I am going to say it again. Mainly cuz I think it would be innovative, unique, and Awesome (and I dont have the kahones to do it to my truck) fab up some kind of a quick release frame disconnect with a center bar on bearings and Turn it into a swivel wagon! Then you can articulate until the cows come home!

Well if there is anyone that could pull it off I would say either PowerWagonMark or PitSlave could make it work. It is such a scary proposition to cut your frame though and once you do it I am not sure you could make the middle strong enough to support any load (could be completely wrong here).

Love that pic BTW. I so want an older PW.

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[SilverWagon05]

Unfortunately in the world of leaf springs... Negative arch placed on a positive arch spring will cause sag (every time!).

That said a stiffer spring like the one Cali markets will last longer but will not flex as much until they are near their end of life and begin to sag that is.

Limiting the maximum flex to only times when forced to use it can extend the life of the spring. Blocks may help for a short time but over time that setup too will sag if placed in a negative arch often enough.

Putting one #2 leaf from your OEM PW spring may net you some life out of what you have w/o dealing with blocks and wheel hop.

I know I'm not sharing any good news but to flex like you can there will be a price to pay.

I don't think they were defective, I think you just didn't realize you had a six shooter and... well... um, ran out of ammunition demonstrating your trucks abilities. All leaf springs (and coil springs to some extent) have a finite number of maximum flex cycles before they become weak and sag. Just pure physics is all not defective IMHO.

Ken

Mark,
If you recall, on the old leaf spring thread on DT, I had asked if you had a close up pic of the rear leafs under compression. This is why I had asked. I was curious to see what your reverse arched packs looked like. With stock PW packs and a 3" block, when I am severely stuffing a rear tire, the front half of my spring pack looks like it is literally going to permanently bend or even break (I've seen it happen before, but with older springs). Without aftermarket packs to shift my axle back that .5", my rear flares/fenders end up resting on my tires, instead of stuffing inside and ripping out the fender brace. (I assume that's what happened with yours from seeing the pics?). Like others have already said, it is inevitable for your springs to sag, especially being cycled as yours are. The price we pay to have fun. You may want to just try a block to see how it works out for you. This would by far be your cheapest option. I've been running mine for over 5 years now, and I really have no complaints.

[Powerwagonmark]

So if you want leafs that flex hard and you actually use them they won't last. If you get a stiffer leaf they will last a little longer as long you dont flex them hard often. I am so pissed off right now I don't know what to do.

[GunniPWguy]

Sucks that the leaf springs are only there to support the load for so long. Time to think outside the box. I am going to say it again. Mainly cuz I think it would be innovative, unique, and Awesome (and I dont have the kahones to do it to my truck) fab up some kind of a quick release frame disconnect with a center bar on bearings and Turn it into a swivel wagon! Then you can articulate until the cows come home!

Well if there is anyone that could pull it off I would say either PowerWagonMark or PitSlave could make it work. It is such a scary proposition to cut your frame though and once you do it I am not sure you could make the middle strong enough to support any load (could be completely wrong here).

Love that pic BTW. I so want an older PW.

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Ya I don't think it is possible. Would be silly to ruin your truck trying. I would just go ahead and look for one like in the picture. That thing is saweet!

[Pit Slave]

If anything, I would look into what type of shakles you have and/or settings you have on them. Actualy, what shackles do you have with the leaves right now?

[Powerwagonmark]

I have Thurens shackles

[Skyd Ram]

I am going to assume that you aren't running any form of bump stop either?

The reason that most suspension systems use bump stops and limit straps aren't just to protect the shocks but also to keep other items within their working limits. Running a soft 4" leaf in the rear without bumpstop extensions obviously allows tire/body contact and the leaf fatique that you are seeing. Like azracer said, in the hardcore off road world leafs are considered disposable when pushed past there limits. Most vehicles that have that much flex are generally running a four link with coils or coilovers to achieve alot of consistent articulation. I have had some older Toyota and Jeeps that flexed very nicely for leaf spring vehicles but you would replace the leafs at least once a year due to stress. Alot of Jeep guys would do spring over conversions on their YJs because the stock leafs flexed well but when whenever they started sagging or even broke you could alays find used stock ones pretty cheap.