Another leafspring thread for my gen3 PW

[nts007]

Yes the powerwagon uses 7 thin leaves. A standard 2500 diesel used a thicker 5 leaf pack. A 3500 uses a thick 4 leaf with a heavy 5th bottom out leaf and then 2 overload leaves on top of the pack. Carli and thuren and others make a leaf pack designed to work for a specific purpose. But the leaves are designed to work with each other. The pw leaf pack is designed for flex and travel. When flexin the suspension the pack also twists as it compresses or extends. Adding a leaf to this pack will affect the system by increasing load capacity but also stiffen the leaf pack. Articulation will be reduced. Adding weight and forcing the articulation will increase the forces acting on the mounting points so regardless you are adding stress to the frame. Rumours that an airbag system cracks frames? Never heard of a dodge frame cracking from air bags. That is a very vague statement as simple fact Firestone has manufactured thousands upon thousands of air bag assist systems for heavy duty trucks. I would bet you that there are fewer hd trucks on the road that haul every day that don't have air bags than those that do. I'm not trying to force you into anything don't take me wrong. I just want to point out that adding a leaf in my and may others opinion is far more detracting than either a complete leaf replacement like the Carli +1500lb leaves or adding air bags. For 98% of us air bags makes the most sense as we can alter the ride height based on load in the bed. I would like you to have the best information we have available to you and that's one of the greatest things about this forum.
I truly am jealous though of what you have planned for the truck. I would love to be able to just overland like you are planning. Really excited to see pictures of your travels.

[Blade]

Thank you very much for the detailed explanations!

I must admit i read of other brand frames (7 series Toyota for example that also has a quite strong frame) that broke because the airbag pushed on a section that was just not designed for it. But as always it's unclear of the circumstances (how heavy, air pressure etc)

Ok, I do understand this with the leaves. Still not sure then why someone (or me) should go with a Carli flexible spring pack or with air bags? Isn't an airbag more stiff/incomfortable on washboards for example? There must be disadvantages to air bags that Carli or Thuren still sell (more expensive) leaf spring packs. Otherwise everyone just would buy air bags?
I will have a pretty constant weight of 7700-8000lbs and rarely up to 8400lbs (with all tanks full). Is the air bag not better for people that drive empty trucks and then suddenly a full loaded one?

If you like you can check our last 3.5year travel from Canada to Argentina at www.pawsontour.com
We did it with a Toyota HZJ75 (Diesel).

And yes, broke 3 leafs, 8 rims, 3 shackle pins,
removed 7 times a leaking radiator, fixes 1 injection pump, 2x leaf spring bushing sets, fixed several cracks i the aluminum cabin and stainless steel bumper, 3 sets of Toyo MT (wear down very fast!), 4 sers of break pads, just to name a few. Got my share of things that break!

[olyelr]

Wow! Sounds like quite the adventure!

In my opinion, mainly because you will basically always be loaded down to the max, is that i would consider working towards a tuned leaf pack for your specefic weight. I think the main benefit of bags is that they easily have the ability to switch back and forth from supporting no load or a severe load. Your always gonna be loaded. Just getting your suspension dialed in to your specefic weight may be an all around better setup?

[olyelr]

I just briefly scoured through that link to your last trip... WOW.

[nts007]

I'm reading through your travels and week 28 in Canada you drove right past my house! In Saskatchewan. Sadly the issue you encountered (the long boring drive on highway for hours and hours) is exactly that. Untill you turn off the highway lol.

In thinking about this more I believe I would suggest staying away from any custom leaf pack. (Back on the rant) air bags would be my first suggestion and second suggestion would be a complete leaf pack from a dodge 3500 swr.
Some of us (including myself) are looking to buy or have bought custom leaves from Carli/thuren ect not primarily for a weight support but for the 18" of travel they allow. Yes the odd truck has Carli heavier weight springs but they also maintain the travel.
But there is a problem. These leaves are custom, do not have millions upon millions of miles of proven reliability without breakage. Yes there is practically nul chance of breakage but if they do you are down for weeks or months trying to get a replacement. Also in this case a pw leaf pack will be harder to find but easier than a custom. You can find a 2500 leaf or 3500 leaf from a dodge in nearly every scrap yard or have a dealership order one easily.
On your comment though about air bags being bought by everyone... They do. Everyone buys the air bags!! Not joking either. Very reputable companies make air bag kits. And Firestone has the market for manufacture of nearly every bag. They are as reliable as leaf springs but slightly more complicated. Ride better empty and unloaded. It's all about shock tuning. And you can get an air bag replace to for your application through dealerships, Amazon, eBay, nearly every single performance truck off-road shop carrys them. Parts are relatively inexpensive. Easy to carry spares.
Your choice to jump from the Toyota to the dodge is a phenomenal increase in frame strength and capacity. For example the pw gvrw ratings are lowered only due the the rear leaf spring setup and D rated tires. But the frame is identical with all the 2500 and 3500 trucks. It is very very strong. You will not break it. The leaf springs are also incredibly strong. It is very uncommon for them to break but not impossible.
So that's my opinion for you. First suggestion is air bags. Second is getting factory leaves from a 3500 cummins. I don't believe that a custom leaf pack or modifying your pw leaf is a good idea for your travels. Which as I read through looks like you have a great Time!!
Best of luck!!

[FirerescuePW]

Adding to or modifying your PW springs will place stresses in an area of the factory spring that wasn't designed for it. A spring shop would have to be pretty sharp to redesign both the carrying capacity AND the stress at each point where a leaf ends and loads the leaf above it. There have been guys (IIRC, nts007 was one) who built spring packs using various leaves from different packs after calculating leaf length, capacity, force spread to the next leaves, etc., but they were staying home. nts007s point is spot on. You can buy a bag or stock leaf almost anywhere. Do you want to build a new spring pack in a parking lot, or worse, if a leaf spring fails? It sounds like that happens to you quite often. Lol.

Either way you go, good luck with your next adventure! Keep us posted.

Sent from my SM-G935P using Tapatalk

[Blade]

Hmm seems like a topic with different opinions!

I broke 3 times a leaf on our Australian OME (Old Man Emu) 12 leaf spring pack. Needless to say I didn't find any of those Australia leafs in Latinamerica, but we always found some guy that had some leaf that did fit somehow or that he had to cut a part to make it fit. Was not perfect and probably not the same spring rate at the original one but it got us going again.
Said that, are the Carli/Thuren springs so much custom that you can't get replacement leafs to make it fit should it break? I would guess a leaf spring shop anywhere in the world could replace one broken leaf right?
I would not be able to get factory 2500 or 3500 Diesel springs in any 3rd world country as those cars are very rare and have no official dealer. So I would also have to go to a local leaf spring shop to find something "similar" that would fit.
And are the 3500 SWR springs not stiff as hell?

By the way, here is my friend his 2500 Dodge Diesel, he got his leafsprings reinforced by a known leaf spring shop here in Switzerland. He got 3 extra leafs, one of them was a military wrap



nts007 - yeah, we only had 6 months VISA in Canada, that's nothing! We loved Newfoundland and also Yukon, but admit, we didn't spend much time in between (except lake superior area) and did more the east and west part. Maybe next time, but with the Power Wagon! We surely will be back someday in this area!

[olyelr]

Since you seem to have issues with leaf springs (although the power wagon ones should be much more robust than what you had before), maybe a better idea would be to add bags. They should take a lot of the stress off of the springs, and you could easily afford to bring a spare or two along if you are worried about them. But like nts007 states, they are really very stout and trouble free. Hell, some of the new half ton rams have nothing but air suspension front and rear, and some of the 3/4tons have nothing but air in the rear - no springs at all.

[nts007]

You put 1000lbs in the back of a 3500 and it rides like a Cadillac. Ask me how I know lol. If you ever happen to chance near me ever I will buy you a beer or coffee or whatever.
I ended up reading through the majority of your travels. Very sad to see you lost a wonderful 4 legged friend. Some great adventures.

I played around swapping leafs back and forth on my truck and came to the conclusion that the pw leaf pack is superior to what I could come up with and short of getting a full new leaf it is the best option for me. Yes any shop can add or replace leaves but the chances of having a leaf for the pw spring is less than say a standard 2500-3500 which is a more common setup.

I still believe for your situation air bags are superior. Since you are not exceeding what the springs can handle albeit rear sag, replacement, initial cost, reliability and availability is far ahead for this specific application. If you were to have total air bag failure in the middle of nowhere you still have the leaf springs capable of supporting the load. On the flip side If you broke any leaf on a spring other than the main spring the air bag would continue to support the load until you were able to repair the spring. Obviously this is my opinion and it comes from driving and hauling with the dodge trucks for well over 2 million kilometres in the last 20 years with 8 different hd dodges. In my mind I'm building a setup to do exactly what you are doing but the way I would go about it. But again that's just my opinion. And many others on here. But it's not the only way.
Best of luck!!!
Hope to one day see you and this world traveled powerwagon!'

[DamageWagon]

There's a lot of great info on here for you now Blade! I will reinforce the point other have made here but take it further. Toyotas are built with a different mindset and design parameters. They do very well and are seen doing duty all over the world in places other vehicles won't make it. But you cannot compare any Toyota out there to a HD Dodge. Even the well-known Hilux is made in a "1-ton" version, but that is a laughable number. Your Power Wagon is built with the same exact parts as the 3500's, and those trucks would probably be considered 5-ton trucks wherever the Hiluxes are considered 1-tons. The only differences you Wagon sees are engine, transmission, and springs. Go look on a forum called Dodge Trucks Xtreme and see what these guys are doing to the same truck you have, and you won't have any more worries about frame strength, spring mounting perch strength, etc. They might make you feel like trussing your front axle and getting bigger shocks though haha.

I agree with nts007 on air bags over springs because the custom spring packs are rarely made to modern standards and have a much higher failure rate and potential than factory leaves. Thuren now uses a better leaf manufacturer with modern capabilities, but he does not do heavy-load springs. In fact he told me the spring rate of the stock PW leaves and of his leaves; PW leaves are somewhat soft, and his leaves are even way softer. Carli has their leaves made by Deaver Spring. I had Deaver make me a spring set for my last truck a few months ago and I will tell you for sure that while they were beautiful springs and they rode well, they make their springs in the same ways and with the same equipment as they did in 1920. They also missed several key details in constructing my springs and I had to make modifications to my vehicle to get them to work. Aside from that, I have heard of several failures of custom leaves, generally due to bad heat treatment causing the leaves to break in the center. The custom leaves also tend to sag fairly quickly. Factory Dodge springs are extraordinarily robust and there are guys running them through North America with a million miles on them, towing a 25,000lb trailer every day. Not to beat that point to death haha, but i would hate to see you find out 6 months down the road that you are out money for parts that leave you in a bad situation.

Regarding your OME springs, are those made in Australia or made in China/Taiwain like most of ARB's stuff?

Because of the changes in weight you are expecting you might enjoy air bags because you can level your rig based on weight. 3500 springs won't move all that much so it wouldn't be a huge issue, but it might be nice for you.

One thing I didn't notice was talk of shocks ( I might have skipped over that). Obviously, of the things you can change, springs must come first. But the next step is shocks. Do you have a type picked out? If you don't, that is something I would definitely buy from Thuren. A set of 2.5 Kings up front and 2.5 King bypasses in the back with the easy-adjust knobs would make the ride much more enjoyable, take lots of the sway out of the vehicle, and would give you a bump-zone on your rear axle prior to hitting the actual bump stop. I just took my truck out this weekend for the first time with my Kings and it was an enormous difference in capability, being able to drive quickly through two foot rolling whoops and never finding bottom.

Best of luck! Lots of long-winded answers here haha




Sent from my safe space

[Blade]

Ok, lots of great answers, thanks a lot!!! You guys almost have me!

So let's say I go with the airbags then. There is still the question of:

- a military wrap would be really nice for the peace of mind. My OME also had it. If I would add such a leaf like my friend did above on the picture, is there also stress on the top (main) leaf as it sits flat all the way on the main leaf? Would that maybe be a compromise to increase reliability and a little bit spring load and do the rest with air bags?

- I read often about wheel hop issues with PW. I guess an air bag won't help at all. But I also always air down on bad roads and on sand I even aired down to 12-15psi with 8000lbs I had on the Landcruiser. I read that it comes from not airing down. Is that something I can totally avoid with airing down as I always do on bad roads?

- air bags: Carli told me about the difference of their air bags and the regular types. Do I need such a long travel air bag as the Carli one or can I get a regular one? My friend has a regular one on his 2500 Diesel and he says that it will be enough for my PW. Who is right?

- Radio from Carli told me but it's not really a problem for me is when driving at different altitudes like we did often in south america going from sea level up to 16'400feet with the car, that I will have to adapt the air bag pressure while doing this big changes in altitude. I guess at 16'400feet the Hemi will perform very weak too


To your questions:

- As much as I could find out the OME (Old Man Emu) leaf springs are made in Australia since over 30 years. I had 12 leafs on the Toyota and I remember that in Bolivia when I replaced one leaf the leaf spring shop guy said they are very soft. So I guess it's the same approach as Thuren/Carli with the more leafs but softer for better axle movement. I still broke 3 leafs about every 30'000km. Potholes, loaded at its limits and lots of dirt between the leafs I guess. This brings up my main concern of breaking a main leaf on the PW without a military wrap and be stranded.

- Yes, I totally forgot to mention that. I got from Thuren Kings 2.5 front and rear. I gave him all the infos, but back then I didn't mention air bags but otherwise I told him that I will go with the stock leafs and my weight I will have. On the rear he recommended the short body to add 2" of travel.

- by the way, if it helps in ANY way, I can place the upper rear shock points higher as I will have a subframe on my cabin and it surely would give me about 2" of space between the OEM top shock mount and my cabin. I didn't know this back then when I ordered the shocks from Thuren.

- nts007: thanks a lot for your comment and sure I will take your invitation if I ever go back in this area!! It's 1 year since we lost her but still feels like it was yesterday. Maybe because she shared this long trip with us! The other companion is very soon 13 and also getting old. I always say/said: those dogs saw more of the world than most people!

[DamageWagon]

I see your point on the military wrap spring. I think that would be the hardest leaf to make if a shop did one for you. You could have a shop only make the front eye with s military wrap, like how my Deavers were. The rear eye was left alone. The makes it much easier to get the length of the spring correct. If you wrap both eyes with one leaf it is possible it will be too long or short and will hit the main leaf constantly and break. Maybe see if a spring shop can make you a leaf to wrap just the front eye.

Those kings are sweet! Thuren is a super helpful guy. You can email or call him up and tell him you are thinking air bags and see what he says. He might have you revalve the rear shocks. You can do this yourself, and he will help you out with what valves to use, if not help you out even more "wink". Super helpful guy.

Unless you plan to move your bump stops and get more travel upwards, there is no point to move your upper shock mounts. I would leave those right where they are.


Sent from my safe space

[Blade]

That picture i posted above (try to open only the picture) shows BOTH sides of the work the leaf spring shop here in Switzerland did and thosen are 2500 Diesel leafs that were reinforced with 3 extra leafs and 1 of them is a military wrap. The right side is completely wrapped and the left only partly. Exactly the same as i had on the OME.

The shocks still are at Thuren. I will ask him about it!

Hmm i got the stock bump stops. Is it worth to mess with this?

[nts007]

Most air bag kits replace the bump stops with the bag. That is their mounting point

[Blade]

So i guess the air bag is taller than a bump stop? Do i loose max. axle movement due to this?

[nts007]

With Zero air in the bag vented then no. Compressed the bags are not taller then the bump stop. Pw has a spacer lowering the bump stop. When you install the air bags you remove that 1" spacer. I ran a set of Firestone ride rite bags on my 06 wagon and never had any articulation issues. Those same air bags got transferred to my next truck afterwards.

[Blade]

So there is no need for the Carli airbags in a stock PW application and i can take the cheaper Firestones?

I talked to the leaf spring shop. They can do the military wrap. They have different steel thicknesses so he can choose one that has about the same thickness as the PW leafs to get about the same spring rate.

Still now the question open on wheel hop: will it keep a problem with the air bags?

[olyelr]

I dont think bags are going to completely prevent wheel hop... if that was your question.

[Colibri]

The power wagon leafs wheel hop pretty badly, king 2.5's will get rid of most of that though, and if you get a military wrap put on your leaf packs you'll be good. I don't know about air bags and axle hop, maybe nts007 can shed some light on that.

[nts007]

No air bags don't help empty truck reduce wheel hop. i just add more throttle lol. I cannot inform on having a heavy load with bags inflated if there is a reduction. Tires aired down defiantly reduces hop

[RustyPW]

Here's my thread about the Carli air bag install. The Carli's min air pressure is 5 lbs, and max is 100 lbs. I've had zero issues with the air bags. I've towed a 10,000 lb camper across the country, and hauled 4,000 lbs of dirt in the bed. The military wrap is a good idea. A good set of shocks ($$$$) to control the extra weight would be a wise plan.

http://www.dodgetalk. across the countrycom/forums/showthread.php?t=346168

[nts007]

I installed longer convoluted bags as replacement for the standard Firestone ride right using the existing hardware. Full travel no binding. It's in my build thread on here too

[olyelr]

I installed longer convoluted bags as replacement for the standard Firestone ride right using the existing hardware. Full travel no binding. It's in my build thread on here too

I will have to check that out, thanks!

Any idea about what page number... if i remember correctly, there is almost a zillion pages.

[nts007]

Page 11
And also here is the actual write up
http://forum.powerwagonregistry.org/vie ... ags#p51836

[Blade]

Ok guys. I decided that I will get the military wrap leaf and when everything is loaded with the cabin etc I will recheck and see how the car sits. Maybe that extra leaf is enogh and it sits level.
Only thing is that it will sit lower and decrease suspension travel, but when offroading and the air bags are empty I will be anyway at this lower position right?

I will keep an update here as the project progresses during this year. Cabin will be built sometime in spring/summer. First I need to pass the most strict inspection and registration process here. You guys can't imagine how picky they are, especially on such "unwelcome/unpopular" cars like a 2500 RAM.