Another leafspring thread for my gen3 PW

[Blade]

Hello guys

I bought now my 2006 PW and it arrived safely in Switzerland. It will be my next overlanding vehicle project. We were from 2012-2015 3.5 years on the road with a Land cruiser HZJ75, but I got really sick of Toyota and it's time for a Mopar again!
This spring/summer I am going to have a friend built a cabin like he did for my former Toyota Land as seen on the picture. As we have a law in Europe that a car can be max. 3.5t and after that it gets complicated with driver lincese, taxes etc. I will keep it at this max travel weight ALL THE TIME. This cabin is bolted on, so removing is possible but will never be done.
This means I will have all the time the 3.5-3.8t (depending on how we pack and how full the tanks are). When outside Europe I can go over 3.5t as the risk is much less to be controlled. The ticket for overweight is thousands of dollars plus being sued etc. but 3.8t is the max. weight of the PW from factory anyway.
HOW will the stock leaf springs perform at this weight? Will it sag?
How would a Carli LT leaf really help in this situation? It won't be a fast desert driver, it's our home and although we often drove offroad on our trip (and broke A LOT) it usually was with brain turned on and at a slower pace as it was always our complete home we were risking to loose or damage.
Sure, I drive washboard at 50mph with low tire pressure, but I am not jumping over dunes. So rather mud, rock crawling etc. with a lot of weight.
What are your guys experiences?

[waldo]

Metric tons or US? If US, the curb weight of most 3 gens is 6800 lbs.

[DamageWagon]

I asked Radio, the tech guy at Carli, an identical question. I proposed a travel payload of about 1400-1800lbs and he said that is a really awkward spot on Power Wagons. He said I would basically be riding almost on the bump stops. Technically it is within payload, but realistically there is almost no suspension left at that point. He said it is a tough call between their regular replacement packs and their heavy duty packs that are built for 1500lbs in the bed at all times. Keep in mind that their regular packs are a 10% payload reduction from regular 2500 springs but are a big payload increase for Power Wagons. I think for you, going with a set of Carli heavy payload leaves would work well. Calling Radio and getting his advice would be the best, he is really going to have your answer. I would not touch Thurens leaves or shackles for this, they aren't meant for payload like the Carli stuff is.

Also you could have a local spring shop make you a set for probably less than shipping from US costs. Maybe you could even sneak dimensions and load numbers from Radio or Jeff over at Deaver Spring who developed them.


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[TwinStick]

Yes, Carli +1500 lb springs are the way to go. If that still don't get you level with the weight in, you can also add these: https://www.suspensionconnection.com/se ... heel-drive

I have the Load Pro 35's on my truck. Love em. I also have stock springs.

[Blade]

yep, exactly. In lbs that means: I will always be in the 7500-8000lbs range, never lighter or heavier. So I will need a leafspring set that is perfectly soft for this weight without sagging, but not too stiff as I won't load more and not too soft as I ALWAYS be carrying that much weight.
I didn't realize that my stock PW spring would be so soft. I talked to Thuren about this a few months ago and they told me I will be fine? So now it looks like I really will need a new set of leafsprings then huh?!

[DamageWagon]

I don't know why he said you will be fine unless there was a misunderstanding. I have 300lbs in my bed right now and my King bypasses are right at the entrance to the bump zone. No bueno. That gives me about 5" of uptravel still, but it's not enough. And that's with only 300lbs in the bed. You're talking way more than that. Hell, throw a bunch of bags of concrete in the bed around the weight you expect and see how it looks!


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[RustyPW]

First thing to do is to weigh the PW with a full tank of gas to get a number. Once you do that. THEN you can start planning.

[Blade]

Yes, maybe it was a misunderstanding since this type of fixed cabin is very unusual in the US. But when I saw the thin leaf springs I thought to ask again and good that I asked again!

Rusty: I can do that yes, but it won't change a lot It just tells me how much weight I have left for the cabin:
I took the empty weight from a datasheet from RAM. The curb weight is 6294lbs. I will remove the bed and I saw a guy on overlandsphere that weighted it at 550lbs. So I will have an empty car of 5744lbs. The law tells me I can be max. 7720lbs (3500kg). I might even go up to 8400lbs when outside Europe and all tanks are full. So I have a total weight left for the cabin, 2 people, all the gear (recovery gear, sand ladders, tools, solar cell, 200Ah extra batteries, fridge, AC/DC charger, DC/AC inverter etc), baggage, food, 300liters (80gal) of fuel, 100liter (26.5gal) of water for 10 days etc. of 2656lbs and to stay in the law 1976lbs. That sounds like a lot, but it's not if you want to be able to stay 10 days off the grid and be able to drive a min. of 600miles with no gas station (happened for example in Bolivia on the laguna route, in Argentina and also Chile or north of Colombia at 600miles with no gas station and sandy underground)
I have enough experience to know that this weight is not that much and I will have to built the interior with flight cases to keep weight down.

Anyway, fact is, the car will ALWAYS be around 7700lbs +/- 600lbs depending how much we pack (how long the trip is) and how much we fill up the tanks.
So it seems that it's a fact that I need other leaf springs. Question is now if the Carli are the right choice or if I need a total made custom set as I will never be below around 7000lbs. So the question is if the Carli doesn't have too many leaves that are suited for people that will use the whole weight range where as I will only use a smaller range but at a much higher weight?

[DamageWagon]

Your description sounds perfectly in line with the Carli heavy leaf pack. You are talking 2000lb payload with no bed which would then be equal to 1500lbs in the bed, as your in-Europe number. When you go above that the progressive pack will still handle more. Frankly, at that point, it actually might be best to get a standard 2500 leaf pack. Carlis will ride better for sure but 2500 standard pack has more payload. CALL CARLI. CALL CARLI. CALL CARLI. talk with Radio, he will point you right. When I was asking him about my truck being built as a long term adventure rig, he started talking from personal experience on what he did with his truck when it was basically an adventure rig for Baja Mexico. No one on this forum does what you want to do, but some do similar things and get close. Radio at Carli has experience with a far wider range of customers than anyone on this forum. I'm not saying you are wasting your time here, but really you kind of are. Get one good answer from the horses mouth.


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[RustyPW]

Your attachment is for a quad cab short bed. Not for a regular cab, long bed. My PW weight in at 6,908 lbs with a full tank of gas on the scale when new. With the bed cap and gear. I'm now at 7,668 lbs. Max weight is 8,800 lbs on my sticker. Your max weight you are shooting for is 3.5T = 7840 lbs. I only got 172 lbs left by your goal. Just by adding a 300lb bed cap, rock rails, 35" tires, and 460 lbs of gear. That's why I said to weigh your PW. It's heavier then you think.

[Blade]

Thanks for the inputs guys! This already helped a lot!

Rusty - now you make me unsure. This is a PDF from RAM for a 2006 model. I took the wrong one, sorry. The reg cab automatic is even lighter at 6070lbs on this list.
For 2008 I also have such a PDF, there the quad cab, short bed is 6250 base weight for the automatic and SLT. Sure, I also have heavier seats, electric windows etc. that will all add up. But can your weight differ so much from the PDF figure?
I will measure it as soon the salt is gone and I can register the car. Right now I can't drive it since it still has US plates.

The rear bed is btw around 500-600lbs:
http://www.expeditionportal.com/forum/t ... Dodge-2500
http://www.expeditionportal.com/forum/t ... bed+weight

[olyelr]

First thing i would do is remove the bed and go weigh the truck. Using online weight ratings for guesstimations is one thing, but i certainly wouldnt bank on it.... get your own personal setup weighed. Then you know what you are dealing with. That is the only way you will really know.

[Blade]

by the way, I posted a few pics of my new PW. There are around 800-1100lbs on the back with 5 35" Toyo MT wheels, winch and lots of other parts.
I didn't look close, but it didn't look like it would sag on the rear, also on the pictures the car stands pretty straight for having such a big load?

http://forum.powerwagonregistry.org/vie ... &start=600

[Vee]

My everyday curb weight on my 07 is just over 7900lbs. It sits level with no sag, maybe even slight rake. But my reg cab does have 2000lbs of cargo capacity. It does sag and wallow a bit with my trailer attached but it has over 1000lbs of tongue weight. The stock springs are stout on the third gens. I like the idea of mocking the weight for your truck with sandbags or something to get an idea of how much spring you really need

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[Blade]

So guys, took the time today to unload all the parts on the bed and went to drive to a calibrated scale.

It weighted in at 5996lbs. It has 35" 325 Nittos on it, stock steel spare wheel. Fuel tank was 1/4 and winch was uninstalled.
So the tank is about 210lbs of fuel (gazoline is much lighter than water) . So if I had about 50lbs of fuel that is 160lbs extra for fuel could be filled.
The winch bracket weights 41lbs. The winch with steel cable and all the brackets are 134lbs. So a total of 175lbs. But I got a Nylon cable so this surely will cut about 60-70lbs of this beast of winch!

That means the 2006 Powerwagon Reg cab with electronic leather seats, electric windows, big alternator, Dual AC, 35" wheels and spare wheel, a full tank and stock winch with stock steel cable is about 6331lbs. With the Nylon cable around 6260-6270lbs.
Removing the bed (596lbs) will give me a base vehcile weight of 5675lbs with full gazoline tank and winch.
This leaves 2041lbs for the cabin, tanks, gear, 2 persons and 1 dog. It will be tight but I think it should be possible!

Oh and I want to get rid of that useless earth anker on the rear: the trailer hitch is definatly not needed and looks to be super heavy and hangs way too low!
I wonder how much it helps stiffen the frame though?! Although I would guess the rearest part s less critical for flexing?

Tomorrow my wife is going to help me load the heavy stuff back on the bed and then I will meausre how much the rear sags... by eye I didn't really see a difference between loaded and unloaded I will load it up to 3500kg/7700lbs and see what happens.

Rusty - not sure if your scale was correct? Your value is waaaay higher than mine, although it should be almost the same?

[TwinStick]

IIRC, synthetic winch line only saves about 30lbs.

Many of us have all our recovery equipment on board which can easily be 100lbs or more, aux battery +75lbs, etc., etc... My cap is 400-500lbs with the toolbox empty. I would not buy a truck without a hitch (earth anker). But if you don't need it & weight is an issue, do what you gotta do. It can also be a good place to hook to if you are stuck or want to help someone who is stuck. My winch is for my use only. If i help someone else out, I pull with a strap.

[Blade]

On my Landcruiser i installed 2 strong eyes to install a shackle on each frame side on the rear. Much lighter and is no earth anker that hits stuff.
I also will use Lithium batteries as i did on the Landcruiser. 100Ah weights about 12lbs. Will have again like 200Ah for the camper and 40-60Ah for the engine. Will weight the same as my original lead-acid battery.

Ah ok on the rope. Thought will be more difference ;(

The complete (empty) cabin will weight the same as the bed.
It WILL be a big challenge but hope it's possible to achieve this weight limit!

[Blade]

Ok, loaded the car with wife and got 7685lbs. The leafsprings saged 3.2". Front i measured no difference.
I guess to get back to stock height it will need 1-2 extra leafs...

[nts007]

Are air bags an option? They work very well for me and won't add much weight but will easily level your rear
I only suggest because it will save you thousands and easily bring your truck to level with only a small amount of air. And bags are nearly as reliable as leaf springs. Ask any highway rig.

[Colibri]

^^^ this man speaks wisdom

[Blade]

Thought about it but don't like the idea of them failing in middle of nowhere and the fact that there are lots of cracking frames rumors due to that. And as my weight is pretty constant I think adding 1-2leafs will be a safer and cheaper (around 400$ here) option.
A leaf can always be replaced in a remote country, an airbag not so easy...

[nts007]

Actually you may be surprised about the airbags availability. You also dont need on board air just a small plug in air compressor works just fine. I have ran air bags in my trucks since 2001 and have never had an issue with frame or axle or anything. The dodge frames are not Ford frames and are very very tough. The chances of an airbag failing is very small but even if it did you still drive home no problem because you are still in the weight class. So your rear is saggy. Leaf springs break often enough too. I have on occasion loaded my box up with far more weight than the trucks are rated for and just used airbags to level it up. My bumper pull cargo trailer has a tongue weight of well over 1000lbs and i have no issues with the bags. Put it this way if air bags were un reliable then semi trucks and commercial over the road vehicles would not exclusively use airbags as they have no springs. Just air. A properly installed system will last you a very long time. In your situation you are not overloading the truck and just using the bags to manage the load a bit better so in the end you haven't compromised anything. Breaking the truck due to airbags is not caused by the system but the people using it

Here's a pic from my thread. 3100lbs of patio blocks 50psi in air bags.

[nts007]

And for the 2lbs the bag weighs you could easily carry spare. Just trying to give you better ideas. You might as well purchase a set of 2500leaves or 3500leaves and maybe even trade someone for the pw leaves. Adding a leaf or two will significantly reduce articulation as well.

[Blade]

Why you write that adding a leaf or two will reduce articulation? Won't the heavy weight of the cabin male it feel like the stock springs with an empty truck?
Doesn't the Carli leafs add many leafs and still flexes a lot?

On the airbags:
I read often that the frames were not made to get pushed in this area and it might break?

[TwinStick]

The flex comes from more leafs, but thinner leafs. The individual leafs on my 08 Power Wagon look about 1/2 the thickness of the ones i had on my 04 Dodge 2500 4x4.