A Tale of Diagnostic Woe

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Re: A Tale of Diagnostic Woe

Post by NickTF » Fri May 18, 2018 1:59 pm

One cylinder head removed, lifters deemed to be "ok", however a borescope exam found damage to the cam (second lobe up from rear most lobe) which required removal of the other cylinder head. My suspicion is a collapsed MDS lifter which never recovered from eco mode and tore things up. I'm being taken care of and that is all I can ask. More to follow as I know.....

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Re: A Tale of Diagnostic Woe

Post by Retired BLM Rig » Fri May 18, 2018 4:58 pm

NickTF wrote:
Fri May 18, 2018 1:59 pm
One cylinder head removed, lifters deemed to be "ok", however a borescope exam found damage to the cam (second lobe up from rear most lobe) which required removal of the other cylinder head. My suspicion is a collapsed MDS lifter which never recovered from eco mode and tore things up. I'm being taken care of and that is all I can ask. More to follow as I know.....
At least they found some conclusive evidence. Ask them to closely inspect the pushrod tips and the rocker arm to valve stem contact surface as well. Also there are four oil control solenoids, one for each MDS cylinder. When activated they redirect oil pressure away from those lifters and dump it. If one of your solenoids got stuck that could be why you had noise and low oil pressure at idle. I would ask them to replace the solenoid on that cylinder, if indeed it is an MDS cylinder.

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Re: A Tale of Diagnostic Woe

Post by Reloaderguy » Fri May 18, 2018 5:02 pm

In speaking with Nick, I do not have low oil pressure. In fact, all of my pressure look healthy and the truck drives correctly. I guess the up side is I have another 40K miles and three years left my warranty. I also called FCA and started a case with them. The person I spoke with suggested I go to another dealer, I asked if they'd like to pay for the three hour drive each way to get there.
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Re: A Tale of Diagnostic Woe

Post by Retired BLM Rig » Fri May 18, 2018 5:43 pm

Unfortunately rural living does have its drawbacks. I used to live in a place that took four hours to get to the nearest airport.

Here’s something for owners of late 14 - early 15 trucks to be aware of.
https://chrysler.oemdtc.com/TSB/09-002-15A.pdf

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Re: A Tale of Diagnostic Woe

Post by Reloaderguy » Fri May 18, 2018 6:49 pm

My truck was built 12/15 and is not a cold start knock. The sound starts at full operating temperature.
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Re: A Tale of Diagnostic Woe

Post by NickTF » Fri May 18, 2018 9:10 pm

Retired BLM Rig wrote:
Fri May 18, 2018 4:58 pm
NickTF wrote:
Fri May 18, 2018 1:59 pm
One cylinder head removed, lifters deemed to be "ok", however a borescope exam found damage to the cam (second lobe up from rear most lobe) which required removal of the other cylinder head. My suspicion is a collapsed MDS lifter which never recovered from eco mode and tore things up. I'm being taken care of and that is all I can ask. More to follow as I know.....
At least they found some conclusive evidence. Ask them to closely inspect the pushrod tips and the rocker arm to valve stem contact surface as well. Also there are four oil control solenoids, one for each MDS cylinder. When activated they redirect oil pressure away from those lifters and dump it. If one of your solenoids got stuck that could be why you had noise and low oil pressure at idle. I would ask them to replace the solenoid on that cylinder, if indeed it is an MDS cylinder.
Thanks for the advice and I will use it when I speak to them tomorrow!

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Re: A Tale of Diagnostic Woe

Post by NickTF » Tue May 22, 2018 10:11 am

"It's a truck motor, that's just how they sound......"

I'm trying to get the service writer to forward the list of parts they intend to replace. The cam and lifters is obvious. I'm mostly concerned about the oil control valve/solenoid.

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Re: A Tale of Diagnostic Woe

Post by Reloaderguy » Tue May 22, 2018 2:26 pm

I got hooked up with service manager who read me the star case notes. There's no record of a tech rep inspection or injector echoes caused by my lift. Everything after the lifter change was probably bullshit.

I suspect I have the beginning stages of the problems Nick is experiencing.
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Re: A Tale of Diagnostic Woe

Post by MJockey » Tue May 22, 2018 3:38 pm

Weird to see a chunk missing from the cam lobe. I wounder what would cause that?


NickTF wrote:
Tue May 22, 2018 10:11 am
"It's a truck motor, that's just how they sound......"

I'm trying to get the service writer to forward the list of parts they intend to replace. The cam and lifters is obvious. I'm mostly concerned about the oil control valve/solenoid.

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Re: A Tale of Diagnostic Woe

Post by NickTF » Tue May 22, 2018 3:50 pm

My suspicion is the MDS lifter was not properly actuating out of economy cylinder deactivation mode. As a result the lifter roller was probably losing contact with the cam lobe and slamming down at that same location repeatedly when commanded to v8 mode.

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Re: A Tale of Diagnostic Woe

Post by TwinStick » Tue May 22, 2018 4:44 pm

How much $$$ is the oil control valve/solenoid ??? For peace of mind, i would probably pay to have it replaced, even though they should do it for free. WTF, another electronic high tech part that was supposed to make things better & more efficient, causes bu-ku damage when it fails !!! :angry:
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Re: A Tale of Diagnostic Woe

Post by NickTF » Tue May 22, 2018 4:51 pm

TwinStick wrote:
Tue May 22, 2018 4:44 pm
How much $$$ is the oil control valve/solenoid ??? For peace of mind, i would probably pay to have it replaced, even though they should do it for free. WTF, another electronic high tech part that was supposed to make things better & more efficient, causes bu-ku damage when it fails !!! :angry:
Mds and any other “active displacement” technology which cuts oil out to lifters is a terribly stupid idea imho.

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Re: A Tale of Diagnostic Woe

Post by scoutpappa » Tue May 22, 2018 8:52 pm

what do the bearings look like?

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Re: A Tale of Diagnostic Woe

Post by NickTF » Wed May 23, 2018 8:56 am

Well looks like i'm getting 16 new lifters (glad they're not just doing one side as is the case of reloader), new cam, and all the assorted gaskets. Still trying to get an answer on the oil control solenoid.

I specifically asked them if there were any signs of wear with the valve stems, rocker arms, or pushrods. I was told there isn't any at this point. I wouldn't suspect there to be any issues with the cam bearings. I've been around far worse cam failures and have seen the cam bearings survive with little to no effect. I did an oil change last week and screened the oil through one of our old #80 sieves at work. I didn't see any signs of metal flakes/pieces etc. Hopefully I will have the truck back in the next few days and from what I gather I will have a full report from the dealer on what was observed, etc. etc. I've been talking with the service writer throughout this process and he's been wonderful to work with!

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Re: A Tale of Diagnostic Woe

Post by NickTF » Wed May 23, 2018 10:35 am

I was told the "issue was with the cam" and that lifter replacement was precautionary. I was informed the solenoid was thoroughly inspected and determined not to be the problem. I even offered to pay to replace the solenoid myself. They felt confident it was not the issue. Time will tell if they were right. I do have to say that alteast they've agreed to address this issue and replace all 16 lifters not just the two on the problem cylinder.

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Re: A Tale of Diagnostic Woe

Post by scoutpappa » Thu May 24, 2018 8:44 pm

Just with the way the cam lobes look I would expect some evidence of metal in the oil. Granted I deal with older engines that delaminate cam bearings more often (in current times) I would still want them changed as well as the MDS solenoid. If you're going to do a top end job, you might as well do the whole thing. I'm saying you but what I really mean is don't let them half a$$ it.

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Re: A Tale of Diagnostic Woe

Post by Reloaderguy » Mon Jun 18, 2018 7:05 pm

After the 8 hour drive to the new dealer the engine is singing a loud song. They're tearing it down tomorrow.
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Re: A Tale of Diagnostic Woe

Post by olyelr » Mon Jun 18, 2018 10:49 pm

At the very beginning of all of this, what did the noise start off sounding like? Like a lifter tick? An exhaust leak?

You got me all fawking paranoid now.
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Re: A Tale of Diagnostic Woe

Post by Reloaderguy » Mon Jun 18, 2018 11:11 pm

olyelr wrote:
Mon Jun 18, 2018 10:49 pm
At the very beginning of all of this, what did the noise start off sounding like? Like a lifter tick? An exhaust leak?

You got me all fawking paranoid now.
Like valvetrain noise. Now it sounds like a damaged cam shaft. Probably the same problem Nick is experiencing. I should know for sure soon.
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Re: A Tale of Diagnostic Woe

Post by Reloaderguy » Wed Jun 20, 2018 6:53 pm

The diagnosis is bad lifters and a bunch of broken clips, loose bolts, and missing bolts. There doesn't appear to be collateral damage to the cam. The "new" lifters installed by the last dealer have a lot of wear for only having 1k miles on them. The rockers look like they were put on with an impact. I suspect the lifters were not actually changed by the first dealer. The intake manifold had about half the bolts hanging out. I'll post pictures when I get the truck back.
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Re: A Tale of Diagnostic Woe

Post by olyelr » Wed Jun 20, 2018 7:38 pm

Reloaderguy wrote:
Wed Jun 20, 2018 6:53 pm
The diagnosis is bad lifters and a bunch of broken clips, loose bolts, and missing bolts. There doesn't appear to be collateral damage to the cam. The "new" lifters installed by the last dealer have a lot of wear for only having 1k miles on them. The rockers look like they were put on with an impact. I suspect the lifters were not actually changed by the first dealer. The intake manifold had about half the bolts hanging out. I'll post pictures when I get the truck back.
:roll:
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Re: A Tale of Diagnostic Woe

Post by Colibri » Wed Jun 20, 2018 7:45 pm

Holy shit I’d want blood
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Re: A Tale of Diagnostic Woe

Post by Reloaderguy » Wed Jun 20, 2018 8:05 pm

I forgot to mention, I noticed last week the AC wasn't very cold when the temps got over 75F. They said they didn't need to pull the AC to remove the passenger side head but given what a mess the last dealer made it is possible they disconnected the AC or damaged it. They are going to check to make sure it has a full charge.
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Re: A Tale of Diagnostic Woe

Post by RustyPW » Wed Jun 20, 2018 9:20 pm

:doh:
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Re: A Tale of Diagnostic Woe

Post by Reloaderguy » Wed Jun 20, 2018 9:31 pm

It keeps getting better. The lifters never came off back order when the dealer said they did. They put the original lifters back in. The lifters are currently backordered. We're looking at lifters out of some other similar vehicles such as a Hellcat.

For guys in the greater Seattle area that need a solid dealer, I have a contact for a good one now.
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