Why has AEV turned to such shit?

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Re: Why has AEV turned to such shit?

Post by BoldAdventure » Wed Jul 19, 2017 10:43 am

laramieskibum wrote: Improved approach angle against something else with a winch on a cummins truck not a stock wagon. If your going to stuff a winch in front of a diesel ram truck it has to be as short as possible. Any additional length reduces the approach angle. Height plays in also but my point is that the bumper is no longer than it needs to be, it is as short as it can get which was important to me (but not to wagon owners, they are already stuffed and just want stouter). No doubt the bumper is worse in approach angle for wagon owners, no brainer, but is a relevant option for diesels.
Um no you missed my point completely. It's a tall bumper. Reduces ground clearance. Now you have a winch, but you also have a bumper that is lower than your stock. The ARB is actually a better bumper because the approach angle is slightly improved (in a way, I'll explain), despite it sticking out further.
ARB-Ford-Bull-Bar.jpg
Reason being, they flared the bumper at both ends, reducing overall height. You'll also notice the flare going under too, acting as a skid to allow you to slide up and over. Way better design here.

The AEV bumper, as nice looking as it is, is the same height all the way across. It mimics the factory design completely.
rambumper_oelights.jpg
The AEV bumper is solely a winch bumper when that consideration is taken into account.

You can approach on a corner better with the ARB with your diesel than you could with the AEV bumper. That was my point about that.

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Re: Why has AEV turned to such shit?

Post by laramieskibum » Wed Jul 19, 2017 11:15 am

MikeKey wrote:
laramieskibum wrote: Improved approach angle against something else with a winch on a cummins truck not a stock wagon. If your going to stuff a winch in front of a diesel ram truck it has to be as short as possible. Any additional length reduces the approach angle. Height plays in also but my point is that the bumper is no longer than it needs to be, it is as short as it can get which was important to me (but not to wagon owners, they are already stuffed and just want stouter). No doubt the bumper is worse in approach angle for wagon owners, no brainer, but is a relevant option for diesels.
Um no you missed my point completely. It's a tall bumper. Reduces ground clearance. Now you have a winch, but you also have a bumper that is lower than your stock. The ARB is actually a better bumper because the approach angle is slightly improved (in a way, I'll explain), despite it sticking out further.
ARB-Ford-Bull-Bar.jpg
Reason being, they flared the bumper at both ends, reducing overall height. You'll also notice the flare going under too, acting as a skid to allow you to slide up and over. Way better design here.

The AEV bumper, as nice looking as it is, is the same height all the way across. It mimics the factory design completely.
rambumper_oelights.jpg
The AEV bumper is solely a winch bumper when that consideration is taken into account.

You can approach on a corner better with the ARB with your diesel than you could with the AEV bumper. That was my point about that.

:cheers:
On a corner yes. Overall approach is worse yes. I did all the calcs afterwards to show the improvement after the lift/bumper, it's a trade off. The ARB bumper got a lot right. I'll post the pics of the calcs for improvement on approach/departure/etc.

Do you folks think that moving the axle forward is nessisary for 40" tires? I think you run out of pinch weld room. By my calcs 40" tires get you to stock rubicon 4x4 specs, this my want to go there. Haven't seen anyone go there yet with 17" tires and reasonable offset and 40-41 tires.


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Re: Why has AEV turned to such shit?

Post by Reloaderguy » Wed Jul 19, 2017 11:24 am

AEV figured out Filson buyers will buy lifted trucks. Nth degree tried this 15 years ago.

You can't fit 40s even with an AEV lift, you have to cut off the fenders.
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Re: Why has AEV turned to such shit?

Post by RustyPW » Wed Jul 19, 2017 12:53 pm

Reloaderguy wrote:AEV figured out Filson buyers will buy lifted trucks. Nth degree tried this 15 years ago.

You can't fit 40s even with an AEV lift, you have to cut off the fenders.
Agree. AEV went after the same market as Rocky Ridge.
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Re: Why has AEV turned to such shit?

Post by olyelr » Wed Jul 19, 2017 5:02 pm

RustyPW wrote:
Reloaderguy wrote:AEV figured out Filson buyers will buy lifted trucks. Nth degree tried this 15 years ago.

You can't fit 40s even with an AEV lift, you have to cut off the fenders.
Agree. AEV went after the same market as Rocky Ridge.
Yep, but they do it better in my opinion. Those Rocky Ridge setups just look janky... Ive seen em on Jeeps, Dodges, Chebys... they all look like JC Whitney stuff was tossed at it. At least AEV looks badass.
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Re: Why has AEV turned to such shit?

Post by Pit Slave » Wed Jul 19, 2017 5:21 pm

olyelr wrote:
RustyPW wrote:
Reloaderguy wrote:AEV figured out Filson buyers will buy lifted trucks. Nth degree tried this 15 years ago.

You can't fit 40s even with an AEV lift, you have to cut off the fenders.
Agree. AEV went after the same market as Rocky Ridge.
Yep, but they do it better in my opinion. Those Rocky Ridge setups just look janky... Ive seen em on Jeeps, Dodges, Chebys... they all look like JC Whitney stuff was tossed at it. At least AEV looks badass.
Maybe that secret ultra high end JC Whitney catalog that you need to ask for from someone that knows someone that has the ins on getting this catalog?

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Re: Why has AEV turned to such shit?

Post by Pit Slave » Wed Jul 19, 2017 5:37 pm

Although I have to say I do like the bumper and all the thought that was put into it. However, I would like to see a version two. Something that would be labeled as a technical version that addresses the more aggressive style or technical style of off-roading.

Hats off to them for coming up with a well rounded design that seems to take care of the majority of the interested. I challenge them to take a new step more in the performance category and design the version two that increases the approach angle not just in a typical sense. I envision better approach angles such as climbing up an obstacle while making a turn. Or descending from a steep hill at an angle. These are real life situations that you come across in trails, especially those that see frequent use.

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Re: Why has AEV turned to such shit?

Post by BoldAdventure » Wed Jul 19, 2017 9:27 pm

phpBB [video]

Clickable link for Tapatalk

Get it, get it, get it... oh.
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Re: Why has AEV turned to such shit?

Post by Z's2016PW » Wed Jul 19, 2017 9:37 pm

Yeah I do like their bumper. If I wanted something else I would consider it. That said really! If your bumper is hitting turn the wheels and take a slightly different approach. No excuse for that!

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Re: Why has AEV turned to such shit?

Post by Z's2016PW » Wed Jul 19, 2017 9:47 pm

I keep watching that darn video. A 3 inch lift with 37's and that bumper is still hitting the rock wall. Definitely a bad approach angle for the bumper. Makes me wonder if the driver is out of his element.

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Re: Why has AEV turned to such shit?

Post by BoldAdventure » Wed Jul 19, 2017 10:05 pm

Here's a fair comparison. 37's 3-inch lift and stock bumper.
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Yea, alot of us did that line. First trail of the week. You know, I just met the owner earlier the day before. It's kind of hard to tell someone to BUMP IT when you don't know them yet. Joe is a really nice guy, he kept up on all the trails and was very positive. Super fantastic guy. One of the best looking trucks too.

I think he could have gotten up it if he bumped it, but like I said, didn't know him well enough just then to tell him to go for it. It would have left a mark, but I think a bump it could of made it. Of course, it might not have. I dunno.
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Re: Why has AEV turned to such shit?

Post by Z's2016PW » Wed Jul 19, 2017 10:47 pm

That is a good apples to apples video. Both vehicles have lift and 37's. The stock bumper definitely has a better approach angle. No argument there.

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Re: Why has AEV turned to such shit?

Post by TwinStick » Thu Jul 20, 2017 12:30 am

Most Power Wagon owners don't like bling that just don't work or don't make our trucks perform better. We like bling that actually works & makes a good truck better. There in lies the problem. We are a small niche market = not enough profit to make it worth while. "DUDE, it's a Power Wagon, it don't need anything" is the type of response I have personally gotten when I e-mailed a popular off-road truck magazine. Not acceptable to me, or many of us. As many have said earlier, it is all about the money & marketing. Putting together something with minimal cost to them & charging the maximum for it. That is the way many businesses work, sadly. We are the "You get what you pay for kinda people, the buy once-cry once kinda people. We will pay for it but also expect it to work, as advertised. I recently looked at a new lifted Toyota Tundra at the dealer. It had a cheesey lift for $67,900 ! I laughed. Told the salesman I could buy a used Ram w/Hemi for $20k or less, put a $10k Carli or Thuren lift/shocks/front end parts & have a truck that was way more HD & way better off-road. He wanted me to trade in my PW. I laughed & said not on your life. People like what they like. The better something works & the more Heavy Duty it is, the more Power Wagon owners seem to like it.
Traded to 2019 ZR2, Red.

4Runner was a GREAT vehicle but could not even tow our 6x10 enclosed utility trailer comfortably, even when it was empty-ish.

It was time. Truck was still leaking BADLY every time it rained or snowed & melted. It was leaking at every single gasket (rear window, front window, all 4 doors). You could sit inside & watch it run down the inside of windshield, rear window & drip off the upper side door beams. It was molding on the inside & starting to stink. Needed new steering gearbox, shocks, new upgraded T-style steering, tires, brake lines, d/s manifold bolts that are barely recognizable due to rust-removed & replaced. Everyone around here would not even touch em once they looked at them.

So, say what you will. PW turned into a money pit. Was no longer a joy to drive. Hoping that this downsized 4x4 with lockers will fill the bill & have minimal problems, but..... As long as manufacturers keep making engineers design things that fail soon after warranty is up, we are going nowhere fast. Regardless of what you buy. :rockon:

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Re: Why has AEV turned to such shit?

Post by BoldAdventure » Thu Jul 20, 2017 12:48 am

AEV certainly seems to inspire some very hard core brand loyalty as observed in this thread. That's almost PC VS MAC level :lol: Or is it Android vs iOS these days.

People tend to like what they have. And if you bought something, then you tend to justify it over and over again to everyone on why it's the best. Becuase us monkeys don't make bad decisions. ;)

I'm willing to admit, however, that maybe I am wrong about something. And whoever thinks I'm a jerk, well alright ¯\_(ツ)_/¯ I'd still buy you beer. It's the internet. We all have opinions. :run:

TwinStick, spot on. Designing for the greatest common denominator is a lot easier than trying to appease the 5 guys who want you to check all the boxes while jumping on one foot, rubbing your stomach and patting your head.
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Re: Why has AEV turned to such shit?

Post by zigsrig » Thu Jul 20, 2017 1:01 am

MikeKey wrote:AEV certainly seems to inspire some very hard core brand loyalty as observed in this thread. That's almost PC VS MAC level :lol: Or is it Android vs iOS these days.

People tend to like what they have. And if you bought something, then you tend to justify it over and over again to everyone on why it's the best. Becuase us monkeys don't make bad decisions. ;)

I'm willing to admit, however, that maybe I am wrong about something. And whoever thinks I'm a jerk, well alright ¯\_(ツ)_/¯ I'd still buy you beer. It's the internet. We all have opinions. :run:

TwinStick, spot on. Designing for the greatest common denominator is a lot easier than trying to appease the 5 guys who want you to check all the boxes while jumping on one foot, rubbing your stomach and patting your head.
Boom.. Ill drink to that :cheers:
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Re: Why has AEV turned to such shit?

Post by Reloaderguy » Thu Jul 20, 2017 1:14 am

MikeKey wrote:

TwinStick, spot on. Designing for the greatest common denominator is a lot easier than trying to appease the 5 guys who want you to check all the boxes while jumping on one foot, rubbing your stomach and patting your head.
Unless I'm mistaken that's the point of this thread. AEV used to focus on innovation. Now they can't even be bothered to figure out their own coil springs. BDS has been making towing capable HD coil springs forever, AEV didn't even try. Sorry, there's no achievement ribbon for "easy". It's like looking at all of your customers and telling them to eat shit.
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Re: Why has AEV turned to such shit?

Post by TwinStick » Thu Jul 20, 2017 1:08 pm

Reloaderguy & MikeKey

I agree 110%. Regardless of what you make, when you stop imagining and focusing on how to make something better, stronger & last longer, the company's seems to stop and begin to stagnate. It happens all the time, for many different reasons, but the customer & end consumer DOES NOT CARE ONE BIT, THEY JUST WANT WHAT THEY PAID FOR & TO WORK AS ADVERTISED. Yup, it really IS that simple for us Power Wagon owners. A company that continues to innovate, imagine & design, will continue to grow.

Trucks, for whatever reason, are a very personal thing, for most owners. Everyone has their own idea of "price justification" & applies it as they see fit. Take me for example, and my recent light install: I would certainly LOVE to be able to order up Rigid, Vision-X or even Baja Design lights. But by the time i figure in cost, actual on-time of the lights & what I am using them for, the top of the line ones just don't make sense for me, in my mind and my budget. That money is better spent elsewhere. That example is just me & just my opinion on just lights for me. My truck, like many others, is really a Jack of all Trades. It tows our camper, goes to the dump, hauls large items home, goes to the Home Improvement store & still takes us out to dinner. Most truck owners are that way. So, i guess there is the practical daily driver & then there is the single purpose vehicle. A truck on 40's is certainly cool & awesome but for a practical daily driver---it is not (unless you are in your 20's :lol: ). The majority of people want a happy medium at a reasonable price.

When I inquired once, at a spray on bedliner store, to have my rockers sprayed body color Red, they gave me a price of $1800 !!! :jawdrop: When I asked, why so much, he said he had to buy a minimum of xx # of gallons, in that color, so he makes the first customer pay for all of it !! Needless to say, I did not have him do my truck. That is just bad business practice & he is no longer in business. To pass the cost of R&D onto the consumers is natural---up to a point. When the performance/durability increase no longer justifies the price, business falls off. But there are also many business's that have niche customers with money to spare. That just ain't the average working man, or in my case, the average retired working man.

Not sure if that all made sense, but you get the point. Lets check back in 10-20 yrs, see if it is still flourishing. :lol:
Traded to 2019 ZR2, Red.

4Runner was a GREAT vehicle but could not even tow our 6x10 enclosed utility trailer comfortably, even when it was empty-ish.

It was time. Truck was still leaking BADLY every time it rained or snowed & melted. It was leaking at every single gasket (rear window, front window, all 4 doors). You could sit inside & watch it run down the inside of windshield, rear window & drip off the upper side door beams. It was molding on the inside & starting to stink. Needed new steering gearbox, shocks, new upgraded T-style steering, tires, brake lines, d/s manifold bolts that are barely recognizable due to rust-removed & replaced. Everyone around here would not even touch em once they looked at them.

So, say what you will. PW turned into a money pit. Was no longer a joy to drive. Hoping that this downsized 4x4 with lockers will fill the bill & have minimal problems, but..... As long as manufacturers keep making engineers design things that fail soon after warranty is up, we are going nowhere fast. Regardless of what you buy. :rockon:

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Re: Why has AEV turned to such shit?

Post by nts007 » Thu Jul 20, 2017 10:00 pm

Anyone remember KORE off road? They stopped innovating once they had their suspension system dialled in. And they just fell by the wayside. They used to be leaders on the hard core ram segment. Now they are a footnote in the lands of the baja
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Re: Why has AEV turned to such shit?

Post by TwinStick » Thu Jul 20, 2017 10:09 pm

Yes, I do.
Traded to 2019 ZR2, Red.

4Runner was a GREAT vehicle but could not even tow our 6x10 enclosed utility trailer comfortably, even when it was empty-ish.

It was time. Truck was still leaking BADLY every time it rained or snowed & melted. It was leaking at every single gasket (rear window, front window, all 4 doors). You could sit inside & watch it run down the inside of windshield, rear window & drip off the upper side door beams. It was molding on the inside & starting to stink. Needed new steering gearbox, shocks, new upgraded T-style steering, tires, brake lines, d/s manifold bolts that are barely recognizable due to rust-removed & replaced. Everyone around here would not even touch em once they looked at them.

So, say what you will. PW turned into a money pit. Was no longer a joy to drive. Hoping that this downsized 4x4 with lockers will fill the bill & have minimal problems, but..... As long as manufacturers keep making engineers design things that fail soon after warranty is up, we are going nowhere fast. Regardless of what you buy. :rockon:

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Re: Why has AEV turned to such shit?

Post by RustyPW » Thu Jul 20, 2017 11:56 pm

nts007 wrote:Anyone remember KORE off road? They stopped innovating once they had their suspension system dialled in. And they just fell by the wayside. They used to be leaders on the hard core ram segment. Now they are a footnote in the lands of the baja
I remember Kore when I first got my PW. They used to be top dog for Dodge suspensions. Now, don't even hear that name mentioned. :(
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Mods to the PW; Nerffed Mopar RockRails, Wheel Well Liners, Bushwacker Pocket Fender Flairs, Garvmin dezl 560LMT GPS, Power Wagon Winch Kit, Line X Ultra Bed Liner, PIAA Headlight Bulbs, PIAA 580 Driving Lights (135 watt), PIAA 520 Fog Lights (135 watt), PIAA 520 ATP Off-Road Lights (135 watt), Locker Bypass, Modifed Rockcrusher Diff Covers, Mopar Utility Bed Rails and Tool Box, Warn Winch Wireless Remote Control, "el-cheapo" Inclinometer, Airaid CAI, Winch TPS Bypass, 35" Toyo's, Mopar Spare Tire Lock, 'T' Steering Linkage, Modifed PSC Steering Brace, P3 Brake Controller, Modifed Fusion "mall crawler" rear bumper , PIAA 1500 Back-Up Lights, 1Ton HEMI Tranny Cooler, Leer 100XR Bed Cap, Factory Tow Mirrors, CenterLine Rims 17x9-5.25 BS, Mag-Hytec Tranny Pan, AutoMeter Gauges, PSC Extreme Hydro Assist Steering, Carli G2 Track Bar, Carli Ball-Joints, Dynatrac FreeSpin Hubs, Snorkel, RCV Axles, EBC Pads & Rotors, Aluminess Front Bumper, 14,000 lb Pul-Pal, 60" Extreme Hi-lift Jack, and more riggin' equipment, Carli Long Travel Air Bags, Bilstein 7100 Shocks - Carli Valving, Carli Control Arms, Thuren 3" SoftRide Springs, Thuren Rear Shackles, MagnaFlow Muffler, Crown Stainless Brake Lines, MORE STUFF COMIN'.

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Re: Why has AEV turned to such shit?

Post by zigsrig » Fri Jul 21, 2017 12:42 am

While we can argue all night and day about the AEV setup on a power wagon, I don't think we can really compare their business model (and successes) to many other off-road suspension and accessory companies.

Not many have been in the market place 20 years, established a vast dealership network, been an integral part of a major vehicle manufactures product lineup, had their parts sold (with factory warranties) at dealerships all over the world and won a few prestigious automotive design awards.

Im pretty sure with the JL coming out soon, they will have (yet another) major cash stream to continue to grow their business... One that should keep this afloat for a bit longer than some may hope ;)

From just a pure business standpoint, id say they are doing damn fine (speaking from a self employed business owners perspective of corse).
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Re: Why has AEV turned to such shit?

Post by nts007 » Fri Jul 21, 2017 1:46 am

When you start ignoring customers no matter how small or simple they seem to you, you're on a downhill slide. And with the internet now it's even faster. 20 years is about the right point for a company to become complacent and overreach itself. Faster and cheaper is a common forum in the automotive industry. If it's sales numbers over product quality it doesn't take long. You talk about 2 products that aev has that are decent. If you count their procal then make it 3. But a hood that's thinner than the factory one? "Lift kits" that in my opinion are no better than a hockey puck lift? Yea that's right. A hockey puck lift could clear 40s too and not affect the suspension geometry. They have weak brackets and some rebadged wheels. For a mall crawler GREAT! Have at er. This is the F'n powerwagon forum. This isn't Mall crawlers united! So yea. Your products will get called out here for not being up to the standard of FUNCTIONAL off road gear. I swear some of you new 4 1/2gen guys have just come from a raptor and it's all bout the bling and how deep your wallets are. Find that offensive? Well that offends me that you do. Because I know I'm not completely right but I'm not completely wrong either. Can we please just bury this aev thread. It lost its entertainmaint on page 3
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Re: Why has AEV turned to such shit?

Post by Pit Slave » Fri Jul 21, 2017 2:14 am

Ok, I have one more thing to add or should I say ask... Out of all the defense talk about AEV, not one person who speaks highly of them has explained why the thread deletion?

:popcorn:

Yeah, I smoked 'em, sometimes you just gotta #sendit
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Re: Why has AEV turned to such shit?

Post by RustyPW » Fri Jul 21, 2017 2:59 am

nts007 wrote:When you start ignoring customers no matter how small or simple they seem to you, you're on a downhill slide. And with the internet now it's even faster. 20 years is about the right point for a company to become complacent and overreach itself. Faster and cheaper is a common forum in the automotive industry. If it's sales numbers over product quality it doesn't take long. You talk about 2 products that aev has that are decent. If you count their procal then make it 3. But a hood that's thinner than the factory one? "Lift kits" that in my opinion are no better than a hockey puck lift? Yea that's right. A hockey puck lift could clear 40s too and not affect the suspension geometry. They have weak brackets and some rebadged wheels. For a mall crawler GREAT! Have at er. This is the F'n powerwagon forum. This isn't Mall crawlers united! So yea. Your products will get called out here for not being up to the standard of FUNCTIONAL off road gear. I swear some of you new 4 1/2gen guys have just come from a raptor and it's all bout the bling and how deep your wallets are. Find that offensive? Well that offends me that you do. Because I know I'm not completely right but I'm not completely wrong either. Can we please just bury this aev thread. It lost its entertainmaint on page 3
Agree. 2X
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Re: Why has AEV turned to such shit?

Post by RustyPW » Fri Jul 21, 2017 3:00 am

Pit Slave wrote:Ok, I have one more thing to add or should I say ask... Out of all the defense talk about AEV, not one person who speaks highly of them has explained why the thread deletion?

:popcorn:

Yeah, I smoked 'em, sometimes you just gotta #sendit
Agree! 2X
PWOC #53
2008 POWER WAGON RC
Mods to the PW; Nerffed Mopar RockRails, Wheel Well Liners, Bushwacker Pocket Fender Flairs, Garvmin dezl 560LMT GPS, Power Wagon Winch Kit, Line X Ultra Bed Liner, PIAA Headlight Bulbs, PIAA 580 Driving Lights (135 watt), PIAA 520 Fog Lights (135 watt), PIAA 520 ATP Off-Road Lights (135 watt), Locker Bypass, Modifed Rockcrusher Diff Covers, Mopar Utility Bed Rails and Tool Box, Warn Winch Wireless Remote Control, "el-cheapo" Inclinometer, Airaid CAI, Winch TPS Bypass, 35" Toyo's, Mopar Spare Tire Lock, 'T' Steering Linkage, Modifed PSC Steering Brace, P3 Brake Controller, Modifed Fusion "mall crawler" rear bumper , PIAA 1500 Back-Up Lights, 1Ton HEMI Tranny Cooler, Leer 100XR Bed Cap, Factory Tow Mirrors, CenterLine Rims 17x9-5.25 BS, Mag-Hytec Tranny Pan, AutoMeter Gauges, PSC Extreme Hydro Assist Steering, Carli G2 Track Bar, Carli Ball-Joints, Dynatrac FreeSpin Hubs, Snorkel, RCV Axles, EBC Pads & Rotors, Aluminess Front Bumper, 14,000 lb Pul-Pal, 60" Extreme Hi-lift Jack, and more riggin' equipment, Carli Long Travel Air Bags, Bilstein 7100 Shocks - Carli Valving, Carli Control Arms, Thuren 3" SoftRide Springs, Thuren Rear Shackles, MagnaFlow Muffler, Crown Stainless Brake Lines, MORE STUFF COMIN'.

Moab '10, '12, '14.
Rausch Creek Spring-Fall '11, Spring '12, Summer '13, Summer '14, Summer '15, Summer '16, Summer '17, Summer '18,
Russ NRA Benefactor Member

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