Power Wagon's and Airstreams?

[TwinStick]

Yes the kind of trailer make a huge difference and camper trailers tend to not be balanced well. No argument there. With 12k lbs of concrete in a dump trailer, you drive like grandma. It doesn't sway but going and stopping you really need to watch your distances. Common sense rules with trailers. And I'm happy to say that the majority of you fellows here have that rare commodity

" Common sense rules with trailers. "
^^^^^^^Sadly, Common sense, is not so common anymore.



"the majority of you fellows here have that rare commodity"
^^^^Yes, yes we do.

[RustyPW]

Yes the kind of trailer make a huge difference and camper trailers tend to not be balanced well. No argument there. With 12k lbs of concrete in a dump trailer, you drive like grandma. It doesn't sway but going and stopping you really need to watch your distances. Common sense rules with trailers. And I'm happy to say that the majority of you fellows here have that rare commodity

" Common sense rules with trailers. "
^^^^^^^Sadly, Common sense, is not so common anymore.



"the majority of you fellows here have that rare commodity"
^^^^Yes, yes we do.

Who who talking about Willis?

[California_RAM]

Here is an update to my experiences towing an Airstream with a Power Wagon:

1. I added the 3" AEV Dual sport lift kit. This kit puts the standard OEM 2500 coils on, and tosses the PW coils. This was a substantial improvement. I highly recommend it for safer towing. The squat in the rear went away. You can see in the pictures the 800lb tongue weight no longer compress the rear like it did stock. Additionally, the front end is no longer effected by the rear squat. The stock set-up made my steering very light (un-weighted), which wasn't safe. However, the: handling, driving, cruising, hitting bumps, and undulations all improved after the lift was installed.

2. The lift also came with a 37" tire upgrade. This was great around town, and even good during flat towing, but it sapped energy when climbing hills like the I-70 "Vail Pass." The stock 4.10 axle ratio is intended for 33", and works. I got away with 34" tires for a while. But, 37" tires require at least a 4.56 axle ratio. My transmission overheats (i.e. goes above 200 degrees) during heavy hill climbing.

So, that is where I am at now. I either have to re-gear to 4.56. Drop my tire size back to 285/70 R17, or purchase a giant transmission cooler...MTF.

[TwinStick]

I would purchase a bigger transmission cooler regardless of what else you do. Trust me, there is no such thing as "too cool" on a 100*+ day, pulling long steep hills at max load, or being stuck in a traffic jam for hours & not moving on a 100*+ day. The bigger tires just exacerbate that problem on the long steep hills. If you like your truck a LOT & don't mind the bad mpg's, I would look into re-gearing if you can afford it. If not, a diesel may be in your future.

I still have the giant engine oil cooler from my 2004 Hemi 2500. I need to get a different adapter to fit my 2008 PW. They went from 3/4" threads, to 22mm threads on the oil filter. Held 1.5-2 qts more engine oil with it on. I have not had the high heat issue with/since I got the G56 trans, but there is no temp gauge for it either. On my 04, the engine temp went way up as well as the trans light came on. Ended up putting a Factory 24 row auto trans cooler on it from a 1 ton dually/Hemi. That helped a LOT.
http://www.shop.perma-cool.com/1318-HD- ... W-1318.htm ----with this---- http://www.shop.perma-cool.com/181-Sand ... ad-181.htm ----and a set of threaded hydraulic hoses --- DON'T get the barbed one! They SWORE it would hold 300psi. It didn't & when mine let loose on the 2004, it looked like a NASCAR blown engine. I pulled right over & slammed on the brakes & shut it down. Luckily, no damage done. I sent it back, they sent the one with threaded ends, I had the hoses made up & no more issues.

[OffroadTreks]

I stand behind my assertion, 600lb and up you need WD on your travel trailer regardless of your tow vehicle. Mechanical active sway control works the best but even old friction units are better than nothing. Some people will get it, some won't...it's no sweat off of my back if you keep on keeping on.

I totally agree. Airstreams have heavy tongues. Our's weights 960lbs. It's not uncommon for some to be close to 1100lbs. WD + Airstream is a must unless you've got a 1-ton dually.

Here is an update to my experiences towing an Airstream with a Power Wagon:

1. I added the 3" AEV Dual sport lift kit. This kit puts the standard OEM 2500 coils on, and tosses the PW coils. This was a substantial improvement. I highly recommend it for safer towing. The squat in the rear went away. You can see in the pictures the 800lb tongue weight no longer compress the rear like it did stock. Additionally, the front end is no longer effected by the rear squat. The stock set-up made my steering very light (un-weighted), which wasn't safe. However, the: handling, driving, cruising, hitting bumps, and undulations all improved after the lift was installed.

2. The lift also came with a 37" tire upgrade. This was great around town, and even good during flat towing, but it sapped energy when climbing hills like the I-70 "Vail Pass." The stock 4.10 axle ratio is intended for 33", and works. I got away with 34" tires for a while. But, 37" tires require at least a 4.56 axle ratio. My transmission overheats (i.e. goes above 200 degrees) during heavy hill climbing.

So, that is where I am at now. I either have to re-gear to 4.56. Drop my tire size back to 285/70 R17, or purchase a giant transmission cooler...MTF.

That's interesting. So I've been running 35's and have experienced no over-heating. I think there was a small noticeable difference in power up passes. But more like I could tell there was extra weight being rotated (if that makes sense). But I wouldn't say it was HUGE.

That's one of the main reasons I've avoided 37's no matter how cool they are. Best to regear with them. I wonder if re-gearing would solve the overheating issue. I also wonder what's going on with your axle temps if your engine is overheating while towing.

[California_RAM]

Mike,
So, I guess that I should clarify on the overheating issue. I only had two incidents where the transmission lagged on shifting, and the throttle got strange and mushy. It has only happened twice in the 42,800 miles life of the truck (got 37" tires just this fall). It is also important to note that the automatic transmission fluid was at the end of its lifespan. I just had the transmission serviced and ATF fluid flushed at about 42,000 miles. It felt brand new afterwards. I also replaced the ball joints, which were worn by 40K (you'll get there too-FYI). I have learned that the fresher the ATF fluid the less frequent these incidents are. It also is true that the more incidents like this that you have also decreases the lifespan of the ATF fluid, and most likely the lifespan of the 66RFE transmission as well. So the two incidents were:

1. Driving the trails around Moab in 4-high all day. I was finishing up the Gemini Bridges trail after climbing up the little canyon trail with 4 adults in the truck (probably 50 miles off-road), and the transmission got temperamental as I was driving back down the highway to Moab.

2. And then going back over the Rockies (I-70) on the way home the same thing happened. And of course this was my first trip since installing 37" tires. They do seem to heat things up. The ATF flush resolved it all. But, I would most likely have those issues again if I repeated the trip now. Currently I am commuting around town in the truck, and of course it works perfect. I have plenty of power when unloaded, and I have the AEV procal with spot-on shifting. Also driving flat across lower Colorado and Kansas had no issues.

Have you driven your 27' Airstream over the Vail pass yet? How'd it do?

[DamageWagon]

California, those issues sound dead on like your torque converter is not locking. I find it very strange that you hit those temps if you were crawling though. We were pounding through sand washes last weekend in the Mojave and I backed off when my trans hit 190. That is the only time I've ever seen it over 180. Even when we were towing a box trailer to Portland, there was a section that probably lasted an hour and a half of tight twisty turns where I had the truck almost pinned in second gear and my trans temps were holding about 160. My torque converter was locked and it wasn't shifting so the trans builds very little heat. Maybe between big tires and towing your trans is shifting a lot, or unlocking the torque converter? It is noticeable if you pay attention to it, but on my 2011 if I press the downshift button once, it doesn't downshift yet but it immediately unlocks the converter to allow the engine to rev up some into the powerband. Can you confirm or deny if something similar is happening?


Sent from my safe space

[California_RAM]

California, those issues sound dead on like your torque converter is not locking. I find it very strange that you hit those temps if you were crawling though. We were pounding through sand washes last weekend in the Mojave and I backed off when my trans hit 190. That is the only time I've ever seen it over 180. Even when we were towing a box trailer to Portland, there was a section that probably lasted an hour and a half of tight twisty turns where I had the truck almost pinned in second gear and my trans temps were holding about 160. My torque converter was locked and it wasn't shifting so the trans builds very little heat. Maybe between big tires and towing your trans is shifting a lot, or unlocking the torque converter? It is noticeable if you pay attention to it, but on my 2011 if I press the downshift button once, it doesn't downshift yet but it immediately unlocks the converter to allow the engine to rev up some into the powerband. Can you confirm or deny if something similar is happening?


Sent from my safe space

I'm not that familiar with a torque converter, and what it does. I had to Wikipedia it actually. However, you do have me thinking. Obviously I use tow/haul mode when I tow. But, it does feel like I am fighting the transmission at times. I hit the subtract button/downshift on the column shifter in order to acces 3rd or 2nd gear depending on the situation. This is because the transmission loves to jump into the biggest gear it can find. And you're saying that is the process of the torque converter locking and unlocking. My question then is it a good thing when it locks? And are you suggesting that there may be a fault, or perhaps a need to change technique on my part?

[DamageWagon]

The torque converter is what links the engine to the transmission gears. Old transmissions did not have locking converters. Basically put, the engine turns a turbine, this turbine "grabs" ATF fluid and uses that to turn the output turbine they is attached to the gears. This means it is basically always slipping, which builds heat. A few decades ago they added a clutch inside the torque converter assembly that locks the two turbines together so that the engine is directly paired to the gears. When your trans shifts, it unlocks the converter, shifts, then locks the converter. When the converter is locked it acts exactly like a manual transmission. This improves fuel economy and keeps temperatures remarkably lower inside the trans.

Now, if you are shifting a lot, both the converter clutch and the gear clutches are engaging constantly to shift, so shifts themselves cause heat. Also, if you are not steady with your throttle, it is possible you could be telling the PCM "more power, less power, more power, no power", where it keeps locking and unlocking. I'm not familiar with the 66rfe so I don't know if it would act that way. My 545rfe tends to stay locked for a bit in tow/haul but generally if you let off the throttle it will unlock the converter so that the trans can stay in gear but the engine can go to idle.

I think heavy tow loads and big tires are causing your trans to not know how to shift right. Maybe. It also could be how you drive. If you drive calmly, a good test might be they if you know you are parking the truck for s day or two and are immediately going to tow the trailer when you start the truck again, pull the positive battery cable when you park and don't connect it again until you go to leave. This will make your PCM forget some of its settings and it will have to relearn its trans control. It will learn while towing and might act better.


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[aearles]

Great info CA, I also tow a 30' AS full time, and I've been seriously considering the AEV kit and hemi 2500 springs (and 37s, of course) to eliminate some squat. Thanks for your feedback.

[California_RAM]

"I think heavy tow loads and big tires are causing your trans to not know how to shift right. Maybe."


Sent from my safe space[/quote]

Damage,
I think you're spot on. I knew this was the problem, but didn't know what to call it. Because I am overworking the transmission with the 37" tires, while still running a stock 4.10 axle ratio the transmission shifts more frequently. The increased shifts via the toque converter is what is increasing the heat. That is why I believe that I have to re-gear to 4.56 at a minimum, but if somebody could point to an easy plug and play ring an pinion kit that offered 4.88...I'd do it.

[nts007]

Have you adjusted your speedo with a programmer? The transmission shift pattern relies on speed input for shifting. That would defiantly make it lug and work harder if you haven't

[TankerZak]

Please don't take this the wrong way, but what is the allure of the Airstreams? We looked at them briefly but they were super expensive and no slide outs. I feel like I'm just missing something?

I have a 29ft Cougar (36ft with the generator tray out). It has a max of 8900 but I'm guessing i run it around 8k with water, etc. PW seems to have no problem with it. I run a WD hitch and dual friction anti-sway. I also have Timbrens but I'm replacing those with Airbags and cradles. I'm almost level, i think i need to retweak hitch height but I'm doing it after the Airbag install. With E rated 35's i just don't seem to be having any of these heat issues, etc.

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[olyelr]

I would highly recommend skipping the 4.56's and going straight to the 4.88's. Going by the numbers the 4.56's would get everything back to basically stock territory, but the numbers dont factor in the added mass/weight of the tires, added rolling resistance, added wind resistance from the lift etc.

Adeluca has 4.88's and 37's on his '14 wagon, maybe he will chime in for ya.

[Bill2014]

On the highway, your elevated transmission temps are being caused by transmission "hunting". A quick fix on the highway, is to use your selector to stay in the lower gear and back off the throttle a little. The 37's are effectively spreading out your gearing - so the transmission will generate more heat shifting.

[TwinStick]

If your trans is upshifting & downshifting a lot or the TConverter is unlocking/locking up constantly, that will certainly cause the overheating issue & the larger tires & load/weight of camper would certainly exacerbate the problem. All these things were exactly what was happening to our 2004 2500/Hemi/auto/545RFE/4.10's & the reason i got rid of it & bought the manual equipped Power Wagon. On our 04, the trans temp light would come on at 250*F. It came on numerous times & after each trip where it came on, I would drain the pan fluid (I had a drain plug installed & 3.5qt would come out when I drained it). The reason I installed a 24 row trans cooler & that big ass engine oil cooler was to make my truck last & not self destruct, from towing what it was rated to tow. If that truck would have had the manual trans, I might still be driving it. Not sure about everyone else but when I buy a HD truck, I expect it to be able to do HD things----like tow it's rated load all day long, regardless of air temp or highway hill grades. I mean REALLY, it is a truck. AND when i was a kid, we pulled a 6300 lb camper with our station wagon===a CAR for Christs sake. Fast forward & now we have some trucks---that are not really trucks at all, just cars in trucks clothing. It seems the ONLY way to get a REAL HD truck these days is to get a 1 ton diesel or bigger, then spend thousands of dollars on them, just to get them to really do what they are rated to do & do it reliably. Even my truck. Brand new, under warranty & sinking $5000 in front end parts, while your making $600 a month payments on it ? That is unacceptable to me. The Manufacturers should be ashamed of a product like that, but they are laughing all the way to the bank.

So, 13 years later, not much has changed.

[OffroadTreks]

Please don't take this the wrong way, but what is the allure of the Airstreams? We looked at them briefly but they were super expensive and no slide outs. I feel like I'm just missing something?

No slides. LOL I've seen so many slides break and leak while full-timing. Not everyone wants slides. I don't need 1000sqft of camper.

And not everyone is into their trailers looking like the interior was designed for the Golden Girls. Modern & timeless design is certainly an aspect of the appeal, the shell will last mostly forever. Most of the Airstreams ever built are still on the road. Just look at all the old ones people restore on Instagram. Find me a 1970's or 1980's Prowler that isn't a POS rotting in a field.

They tow beautifully. I've towed a 25ft Wilderness in the past. I will just say, nothing tows like an Airstream or maneuvers around a gas pump like one either. If you haven't towed one, you won't know what you are missing.

Ours loaded up to live in full time, with 505 watts of solar on the roof, 39 gallons of fresh water, two 30lb full propane tanks was 6980lbs over the cat scales. Our GVWR is 7500lbs.

I suppose you just have to be into it though. You're not really missing something if it isn't for you. It's really like Camaro vs Mustang, your tastes, and preferences. I mean we lived in ours for a little over two years full time. And we're moving back into part time travel now. I love the simplicity. I love the community. Airstreams are a bit like owning a Corvette, or a Mustang in that there is a very active community of owners.

We plan to own ours forever. Also, I didn't buy new. But I hear 15~20% off MSRP is common.

[DamageWagon]

After remaking a command and control truck with a poorly made slide out, I would never own one. Literally spent almost 1000 man hours on that stupid thing, PLC control, ball screws with custom electromagnetic brakes. Never again. More space is cool. That's why I step outside Airstreams stand out and are just beautiful. I love the pure aluminum look.


Sent from my safe space

[Reloaderguy]

Please don't take this the wrong way, but what is the allure of the Airstreams? We looked at them briefly but they were super expensive and no slide outs. I feel like I'm just missing something?

No slides. LOL I've seen so many slides break and leak while full-timing. Not everyone wants slides. I don't need 1000sqft of camper.

And not everyone is into their trailers looking like the interior was designed for the Golden Girls. Modern & timeless design is certainly an aspect of the appeal, the shell will last mostly forever. Most of the Airstreams ever built are still on the road. Just look at all the old ones people restore on Instagram. Find me a 1970's or 1980's Prowler that isn't a POS rotting in a field.

They tow beautifully. I've towed a 25ft Wilderness in the past. I will just say, nothing tows like an Airstream or maneuvers around a gas pump like one either. If you haven't towed one, you won't know what you are missing.

Ours loaded up to live in full time, with 505 watts of solar on the roof, 39 gallons of fresh water, two 30lb full propane tanks was 6980lbs over the cat scales. Our GVWR is 7500lbs.

I suppose you just have to be into it though. You're not really missing something if it isn't for you. It's really like Camaro vs Mustang, your tastes, and preferences. I mean we lived in ours for a little over two years full time. And we're moving back into part time travel now. I love the simplicity. I love the community. Airstreams are a bit like owning a Corvette, or a Mustang in that there is a very active community of owners.

We plan to own ours forever. Also, I didn't buy new. But I hear 15~20% off MSRP is common.

Is that John Day?

[OffroadTreks]

Yup

[Zybane]

Here is an update to my experiences towing an Airstream with a Power Wagon:

1. I added the 3" AEV Dual sport lift kit. This kit puts the standard OEM 2500 coils on, and tosses the PW coils. This was a substantial improvement. I highly recommend it for safer towing. The squat in the rear went away. You can see in the pictures the 800lb tongue weight no longer compress the rear like it did stock. Additionally, the front end is no longer effected by the rear squat. The stock set-up made my steering very light (un-weighted), which wasn't safe. However, the: handling, driving, cruising, hitting bumps, and undulations all improved after the lift was installed.

2. The lift also came with a 37" tire upgrade. This was great around town, and even good during flat towing, but it sapped energy when climbing hills like the I-70 "Vail Pass." The stock 4.10 axle ratio is intended for 33", and works. I got away with 34" tires for a while. But, 37" tires require at least a 4.56 axle ratio. My transmission overheats (i.e. goes above 200 degrees) during heavy hill climbing.

So, that is where I am at now. I either have to re-gear to 4.56. Drop my tire size back to 285/70 R17, or purchase a giant transmission cooler...MTF.

Look's great! I went a different route and got SumoSprings:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xfYFE0eWiQU&t=262s

Working great so far in combination with my ProPride 3P. I'd love to get 37's but towing a 10K pound Airstream would be a no-go with that for me. I also hate not having a spare fit in the stock location. I will be going with 35's. I wonder if I too will eventually have to get an extra trans cooler.

[TwinStick]

It would certainly be cheaper to get one to avoid damage, rather than getting one after damage is done & paying for both.

[TankerZak]

Don't get me wrong i think AirStreams are sexy as hell, i just need a slide out! How is that ProPride working? I'm really considering one. I have an EAZ-lift now with double friction control and it works fine for the most part. But with my back i really need an easier hitch to use.

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[Zybane]

ProPride is awesome. There are pivot point projection hitches... and then there is everything else. After you've driven with a pivot point projection hitch you will never go back to lesser designs.

As for slide outs, if you really think about it all they do is open up empty floor space. I guess that is good if you like to play with kids or pets inside? With that extra open floor space comes with: air/water leaks-less insulation, maintenance nightmare, extra weight, having to clean the top of the slide out, removing ice/snow, larger campsites required etc. I love being able to tuck my Airstream into nice cozy state and national park sites.

[powwagkup]

This followed me home on Sunday. Truck performed flawlessly on the 600 mile tow home...



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