Page 2 of 2

Re: Bouncing Problemos

Posted: Mon Nov 05, 2018 12:35 pm
by Reloaderguy
The initial swaying feeling is a combination of slack in the Smart Bar, low rebound dampening, short rear sway bar, inboard rear coils, and weight high up on the chassis. Lower tire pressure helps absorb some of it. Start with a set of Airlift ultimate airbags in Daystar cradles run at 5 to 10 psi all the time. The airbags are mount outboard of the coil springs and support the chassis as the body starts to roll. A Thuren rear trackbar will sort out the rear wiggle you feel in off camber, sweeping turns.

Re: Bouncing Problemos

Posted: Tue Nov 06, 2018 12:22 am
by DamageWagon
I still have yet to figure out why some trackbar bushings wear out so fast. I think almost every early death one was from Moab, minus two exceptions I think, which makes sense with all the chassis movement, dry steering, potentially heat saturation.

But then my truck has been like Lee’s I’m averaging 30,000 miles on a bushing set and both of us drive more like monkeys in the dirt. Guys with radius arms are somehow wearing out bushings faster on some occasion even though their axle produces forces they are much nicer on the trackbar than the 03-13 trucks with the short arms.

Re: Bouncing Problemos

Posted: Tue Nov 06, 2018 6:59 am
by olyelr
DamageWagon wrote:
Tue Nov 06, 2018 12:22 am
I still have yet to figure out why some trackbar bushings wear out so fast. I think almost every early death one was from Moab, minus two exceptions I think, which makes sense with all the chassis movement, dry steering, potentially heat saturation.

But then my truck has been like Lee’s I’m averaging 30,000 miles on a bushing set and both of us drive more like monkeys in the dirt. Guys with radius arms are somehow wearing out bushings faster on some occasion even though their axle produces forces they are much nicer on the trackbar than the 03-13 trucks with the short arms.
Would a track bar bolt that is not properly torqued down cause premature wear to the bushing? Im sure that happens all the time.

Re: Bouncing Problemos

Posted: Tue Nov 06, 2018 8:12 am
by 2wagons1driveway
Yes that would for sure. Same with having too much angle difference between the frame side bushing and the axle side (constantly tweaking the frame side bushing) the radius arm trucks I imagine, given their swing of the axle, wear the track bar bushings faster compared to the four link/ fine link trucks front ends. Still though seems pretty crazy they wore out that fast. I thought that stuff only happened to carli bars Lolol


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Re: Bouncing Problemos

Posted: Tue Nov 06, 2018 12:22 pm
by BoldAdventure
DamageWagon wrote:
Tue Nov 06, 2018 12:22 am
I still have yet to figure out why some trackbar bushings wear out so fast. I think almost every early death one was from Moab, minus two exceptions I think, which makes sense with all the chassis movement, dry steering, potentially heat saturation.
We measured them in Moab again, they never climbed above 80 degrees. It is not heat. Three non-Moab exceptions, Mine, Mike, David all had failures outside of Moab. Then David and I had repeat failures again in Moab.

Worse, the failures not in Moab were tame in comparison. No real crawling on Ouray for me. Mike B said he was doing tame CO trails, and same with David.
2wagons1driveway wrote:
Tue Nov 06, 2018 8:12 am
Yes that would for sure. Same with having too much angle difference between the frame side bushing and the axle side (constantly tweaking the frame side bushing) the radius arm trucks I imagine, given their swing of the axle, wear the track bar bushings faster compared to the four link/ fine link trucks front ends. Still though seems pretty crazy they wore out that fast. I thought that stuff only happened to carli bars Lolol ImageImage
That's the running theory that Neil has, and I think he might be right. Thuren doesn't think so, but the strikes against him for "I never actually tested it on a PW are 3 to 0". We've all verified torque spec.

On these past two failures I had, the bushing itself remained in tack, but the center ovaled out. Think David reported the same thing.

What would cause them to repeatedly oval? Thinking there is some extra movement with the articulink.

I'm on my 4th set of bushings now.

Re: Bouncing Problemos

Posted: Tue Nov 06, 2018 12:31 pm
by DamageWagon
olyelr wrote:
DamageWagon wrote:
Tue Nov 06, 2018 12:22 am
I still have yet to figure out why some trackbar bushings wear out so fast. I think almost every early death one was from Moab, minus two exceptions I think, which makes sense with all the chassis movement, dry steering, potentially heat saturation.

But then my truck has been like Lee’s I’m averaging 30,000 miles on a bushing set and both of us drive more like monkeys in the dirt. Guys with radius arms are somehow wearing out bushings faster on some occasion even though their axle produces forces they are much nicer on the trackbar than the 03-13 trucks with the short arms.
Would a track bar bolt that is not properly torqued down cause premature wear to the bushing? Im sure that happens all the time.
That is the cause of almost every short-lived bushing, yes. Not torquing to spec is a big problem. You also have to re-torque after you’ve broken in a new bushing.

Re: Bouncing Problemos

Posted: Tue Nov 06, 2018 1:10 pm
by Reloaderguy
The OP doesn't have a trackbar problem.

Re: Bouncing Problemos

Posted: Tue Nov 06, 2018 1:24 pm
by DamageWagon
What’s a good thread without a responsible derailment?

Re: Bouncing Problemos

Posted: Tue Nov 06, 2018 2:25 pm
by 1pieceatatime
I'm appreciating the dialog, as it's informative and I am not sure exactly what my main issue is yet! Lots of advice here to sort through for my specific issue.

It may be better in a dedicated thread with an appropriate title though - may help other folks find it via search for future reference.

Bouncing Problemos

Posted: Tue Nov 06, 2018 3:27 pm
by 2wagons1driveway
De-rail continues: All I know is mines had a hard life, and it’s lived long and tight- I’m honestly surprised the radius arm trucks are eating them up maybe don needs to do some more research into how the power wagon specific failures are occurring I know he loves a good challenge. As always be sure to give him feedback with whatever you find because it does sound like this is something that only concerns us p.wagon guys and more specifically the radius arm trucks.

Me personally I have always upped the torque specs on the fourth gen bolts even by 20-40ft lbs... or much more- pretty much as tight as I can get those things.

To totally rule out that these bushings have all been torqued enough we should be checking inside the track bar bracket for any signs of the actual bushing sleeve moving as that would indicate inadequate holding torque. And given all 7000 plus lbs of force on these things even during a small crawl in Moab when the trucks virtually sideways most trails I’m sure that could eat the bushing up mighty quick.

Last time I chatted with don or even carli guys about track bar frame side bushing failures it seemed to be a common issue for them to fail if they weren’t torqued properly or the rod end was being torqued in a way that when axle fully drooped it would put a ton of load on the bushing in a way it wasn’t designed to handle load (twisting forces)

Something to consider.

But back on track: did the OP fix their problem yet or whaaaaaa?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Re: Bouncing Problemos

Posted: Tue Nov 06, 2018 3:38 pm
by Reloaderguy
1pieceatatime wrote:
Tue Nov 06, 2018 2:25 pm
I'm appreciating the dialog, as it's informative and I am not sure exactly what my main issue is yet! Lots of advice here to sort through for my specific issue.

It may be better in a dedicated thread with an appropriate title though - may help other folks find it via search for future reference.
I addressed it at the top of page 2. You need airbags or custom valved shocks with the a lot of rebound dampening.

Re: Bouncing Problemos

Posted: Tue Nov 06, 2018 4:05 pm
by BoldAdventure
Reloaderguy wrote:
Tue Nov 06, 2018 3:38 pm
I addressed it at the top of page 2. You need airbags or custom valved shocks with the a lot of rebound dampening.
This is based on your assumption that his problem is simply the weight up high. I had the SAME experience with a bad fornt track bar. Once the bushing was replaced, that's never happened again. SAME EXACT experience he described, with the sway and the sway control kicking in.

I say check the track bar.

If it's solid, then move to those steps. Really, we already explained how to check the trackbar.

Thuren rear track bar & air-lift bags.

:cheers:

Re: Bouncing Problemos

Posted: Tue Nov 06, 2018 5:59 pm
by RustyPW
DamageWagon wrote:
Tue Nov 06, 2018 1:24 pm
What’s a good thread without a responsible derailment?
:lol:

My first track bar was a 1st Gen Carli. After a couple of bushings. I decided to get another bar. Looking at the 2nd Gen Carli and the Thuren bar. The Thuren bar was the same design as the 1st Gen Carli bar, only with different poly bushing. I figured that it will fail too at some time. So I went with the 2nd Gen Carli bar. Different design on the frame mount bushing. So far, so good.