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Re: 10mm Doubles

Postby adeluca73 » Sat Apr 22, 2017 12:16 am

Reloaderguy wrote:
adeluca73 wrote:
Then I cam across the "Big Rock" from Rock Island Armory (RIA). A true double stack 16rnd 1911 (called a 2011) long slide competition race/pro gun inspired configuration. They are still over $1000, which is a lot for a RIA, but they are feature packed, and cost about half of a comparable spec'd gun of another "major" brand even though RIA has been making guns since the '40's, Here's a link to it:

http://armscor.com/firearms/pro-series/ ... 6-hc-10mm/



By the way, the RIA pistol is not a "2011" pattern double stack, it is a Para P18. 2011 guns use a polymer grip and chassis and take specific 2011 pattern magazines. The 2011 magazines are the gold standard for double stack open race guns, P18 mags are somewhere between AIDS and Honda. They can be made to work, some work pretty well...some are a nightmare. Para was bought by Remington which seems to be prophetic since both have about the same level of poor quality.


Not sure about the 2011 vs P18, and at this point of my research, that point is picking the pepper out of the fly shit. I called it a 2011 because one of the reviews I read in TruthAboutGuns called it that, and I didn't really pay that much attention to the grip material to care, reference attached, 1st Paragraph, 2nd Sentence: http://www.thetruthaboutguns.com/2016/0 ... 0mm-1911s/ ---- also there are several youtube vids showing a STI 2011 mag fitting and cycling in the RIA Pro 6" Ultra HC 10mm.

Also, because you've had a bad Remington gun doesn't mean they are all bad, and from reading your postings here, you're too bright to make such sweeping assertions. Similarly the near perfect history (with some notable exceptions from early 2000's) with the nearly 10 or so Remington's I've owned and currently own, are not a statistically significant sample to provide any z-hypothesis verified measured of confidence in their quality either. I have 3x M700s, pump 35Rem, 3x various 870s, 1100, 1187, 1100G3 (poor qual), 105CTi (poor qual), and a newly purchased wood stock V3. The new R51 and V3 have had years of R&D, millions of rounds of testing, and dozens of aerospace level mil-std type tesitng since they hired their new CEO from the LMMS aeronautics division. I've watched several Remington engineering documentaries, and read several engineering studies on Remington's new processes and company motto that they WILL NOT release a product until it's both over 99.9% reliable and is produced in sufficient quantities so all of their major distributors can field them at once. The work they did on the v2 of the R51 is astounding, and the way they mindfully ensured all the v1 R51 customers were completely taken care of is rarely seen. They announced the synthetic version of their 3" only version of the Versamx, called the V3 in SHOT '13, but didn't released the synthetic V3 until later in 2015 to do more production gun testing (millions more rounds), which was already after several yrs of testing and iterating on their already successful 3.5" Versamax, which uses the same M2 gas piston design, proven by the US military in combat for years. When they announced the wood stock model at Shot 2015, they didn't release the production guns until Dec 16 to verify small gas system and hand guard fitting changes. The V3 I have is a top notch semi auto that is attractive, light weight, points well, balances well, has a great tigger, and has been flawless for under $750. I have several $2500+ semis from "the big 3 European companies" that aren't a whole lot better, and a $5K Beretta competition O/U whose fit and finish isn't 10x better. No company is perfect, but Remington has demonstrated serious dedication to customers and fixing their lapses under the dereliction of Cerbeus leadership from 10-15 yrs ago, I would pump the bakes on denigrating Remington...I think we all should root for Rem and Colt to stay in business, it's good for more than the obvious reasons.
2014 Ram PW SLT: Two tone Flame Red & Black
Completed Mods: Ram door sill guards, Front air deflector, WeatherTech slimline window deflectors, DiamondBack HD cover coated w/ Line-X, Mufflex MagnaFlow muffler & Resonator delete, Opti-Coat Pro 2.0, DeeZee tailgate strut, DeeZee ¼" fitted bed mat, Factor-55: FlatLink winch hook/Shorty Strap 3.0/Hitchlink 2.5, Warn Wireless Winch Remote, Locker by-pass, AEM dry filter, Truxedo LED bed lights wired into RamBox Connector, WhiteKnuckle sliders w/ full-length diamond plate coated in Line-X, Purple Cranium rear diff guard, AEV front/rear diff cover, AEV RAI w/ pre-filter, AEV ProCal (Bootleg'd), DOR Steering Box Brace, Phillips Hi intensity LEDs in cargo lamps & back-ups, triple anti-hop shocks, Truxx PW specific front 1.5" level, AAM 4.88's, custom black-out work, Line-X front/rear bumpers & wheel flares, 37" Nitto Ridge Grapplers, Plasti-dip PW wheels Black w/ Gunmetal metalizer, FilterMag kit, AMP Research BedStep
Next Mods: Thuren: {Coils, Track Bar, Boggie Bumps, King 2.5's shocks} , on-board air, HID low CANBUS replacement, LED HI, BD LED fogs
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Re: 10mm Doubles

Postby adeluca73 » Sat Apr 22, 2017 12:45 am

Reloaderguy wrote:
adeluca73 wrote:
Reloaderguy wrote:I think you're missing out if you don't at least look at a Tanfo / EAA Witness Hunter 10mm. It's a 10mm in a CZ style race frame with a tuned CZ style ignition system. As good as the Dan Wesson and better than everything else you listed. http://eaacorp.com/index.php/guns/handg ... foglio-109

I had a Sig 1911, what an abortion. They broached the magwell crooked and nothing lined up. Sig replaced that pistol three times and never got it right. Any time I hear Sig USA and "match" in the same sentence I can't help but laugh.


No, I have looked at both EAA & STI. Not a huge CZ fan (had a CZ75 long time ago, it was ehh) especially of its Italian knock-off Tangfolio, & we'll disagree on where EAA resides in the pantheon of firearm manufacturers. The Witness Hunter is a very similiar product as the RIA Big Rock 2011, right? Both are supped up race spec double 10's from a traditionally lower tier priced company, selling remakes of other established designs, at price friendly levels--RIA Big Rock 2011 MSRP : $1300, EAA Witness Hunter MSRP : $1300. I think your assertion "better than everything else listed" is a long stretch, unverified, and not substantiated by any measure of demonstrable standards. But im open to reviewing data or other info stating thus--but it is a great looking gun, maybe if i can find one at a irresistible price ($950-$1K is street $) I'd give it a go, can always trade it off if it's not for me.

I don't want to spend $2K for an STI (although they're awesome, like a Caspian) if I don't have to. The Sig 1911 isn't a high contender right now, but the P220 elite is.

Honestly $1K is my comfort zone, maybe $1300 if i really loved something. The Wesson is still above my price range, but it's the gold std in 10mm in my opinion, which brings the Delta Elite in strong contention with the RIA double.


In the end what you want is what you want, no data in the world will change that. The only real way to demonstrate quality is to personally hold each example. Tanfo makes raceguns that go head to head with STI, they also make lower end guns but that isn't their main business. I wouldn't put a Filipino pot metal gun in the same category as an upper end Tanfo regardless of the RIA's pricepoint. Call it a knockoff or not, it's just silly. Of course, CZ makes race guns too and if the extent of your experience with the brand is a 1980 PD surplus gun then I don't know what to tell you. My built Shadow is nowhere close to "ehh".

As I said, I wouldn't buy from any of the companies you listed; Remington's QC is absolutely terrible right now, Colt is on the verge of bankruptcy, Kimber is still in love with MIM and poor QC, and RIA is a low end asian 1911. The quality of 1911's in the last 20 years has not improved, you're going to pay top dollar for low quality parts. Dan Wesson (CZ) is the only company you listed that seems to care about quality and actually makes a good product. The point about Sig is that their US built guns aren't the same quality as the German models despite the high price.

Frankly, the major selling point of the 10mm is that it is available in a double stack. Once you reduce magazine capacity to seven or eight rounds you may as well buy a wheelie gun with big horsepower. 10mm was always marketed as having close to 357mag energy in a high capacity magazine and relatively short barrel. There are only a couple of 10mm pistols on the market that are decent quality and high capacity and you already own one of them. My short list for 10mm is Glock and Tanfo. They are the only two high capacity 10mm guns in current production that were purpose built for the cartridge.

FWIW,YMMV

ETA: DW does the Razor Back in 10mm for $1400. Not cheap but less than $2K. http://danwessonfirearms.com/product/razorback-rz-10/


I agree once i relent on the DS 10mm, then the trade space opens up. I do want a 1911 10mm. Does it have to be a double, meh, I'd prefer it but I'd live with a single since I already have a DS 10mm in the G40. However, I think you'd be surprised if you did a little reading on the RIA story--they're a 110 yr old manufacturer, According to my research, Rock Island Armory traces its origins to Squires Bingham & Co, founded in 1905 in Manila by a couple of British expats as a photo print shop. The store later morphed into a sporting goods concern offering sporting long guns and ammunition. Later acquired by an American, Arthur Hileman, in the 1930s.
http://www.gunsandtech.com/reviews/rob- ... ck-driver/

I have read extensively on the EAA Witness Hunter since yesterday, and the overwhelming opinion is that EAA's customer service is horrendous. The reviews of the pistol have been generally favorable, but not more than the RIA, and no where near as favorable as RIA's customer service. I've been reading on every forum I can find and every paid reviewer that has reviewed the RIA Pro 6" Ultra HC and I can't find a single negative review or a single instance of failing (aside from some female limp wristers), however, the inter webs are replete with EAA Witness 10mm failure videos, here's the first vid that popped up, which the reviewer called it the Tangfolio Witness Jammomatic: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jiXFPsNzikw. I haven't shot or even seen a EAA Witness Hunter, so it's hard to make judgements on something I haven't seen, although the documented usage from other owners presents dramatically different evidence than your experience and opinions on the two, and much like the RIA, both of them are very scarce. I think both RIA and EAA/Tangfolio probably are capable of producing fine upper end runners--not sure about the Witness Hunter, but the RIA Pro Ultra HC is hand fitted, polished, and lapped at the factory by ONE guy, hence why that gun is several hundreds more than many of their other products-- the problem is those guns start creeping up in $ to compete with other well established higher tiered makers.

As far as singles, no debate the US Sigs are not the same as those made in Germany. I own two German made SIGs a P220 Elite and a P239 SAS, and it's blasphemy to intimate that anything from RIA, CZ, or EAA approach the reliability and go to war proven track record of either Colt or SIG, which I know you were not implying. If the P220 Elite Hunter was more than an 8 and gun, search would be over. But for the price and only 8 rounds, can't do it. The new 2016 Colt Delta Elite has some great upgrades over the reintroduced 2008 model, and I've seen it on line in the $920 ballpark, and it's available in plenty of places. The EAA and RIA are not so easily available.
2014 Ram PW SLT: Two tone Flame Red & Black
Completed Mods: Ram door sill guards, Front air deflector, WeatherTech slimline window deflectors, DiamondBack HD cover coated w/ Line-X, Mufflex MagnaFlow muffler & Resonator delete, Opti-Coat Pro 2.0, DeeZee tailgate strut, DeeZee ¼" fitted bed mat, Factor-55: FlatLink winch hook/Shorty Strap 3.0/Hitchlink 2.5, Warn Wireless Winch Remote, Locker by-pass, AEM dry filter, Truxedo LED bed lights wired into RamBox Connector, WhiteKnuckle sliders w/ full-length diamond plate coated in Line-X, Purple Cranium rear diff guard, AEV front/rear diff cover, AEV RAI w/ pre-filter, AEV ProCal (Bootleg'd), DOR Steering Box Brace, Phillips Hi intensity LEDs in cargo lamps & back-ups, triple anti-hop shocks, Truxx PW specific front 1.5" level, AAM 4.88's, custom black-out work, Line-X front/rear bumpers & wheel flares, 37" Nitto Ridge Grapplers, Plasti-dip PW wheels Black w/ Gunmetal metalizer, FilterMag kit, AMP Research BedStep
Next Mods: Thuren: {Coils, Track Bar, Boggie Bumps, King 2.5's shocks} , on-board air, HID low CANBUS replacement, LED HI, BD LED fogs
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