14+ 5.13 Gears, Noisy?

Post Reply
ScubaSteve
50_Posts
50_Posts
Posts: 54
Joined: Fri Jun 28, 2019 10:40 am
Model Year: 2016
Location: Kansas City, MO

14+ 5.13 Gears, Noisy?

Post by ScubaSteve » Mon Sep 21, 2020 10:36 am

Weekend before last I began the install of my 5.13 gear set in the rear of my Wagon. Was slow-going as it was a bit of a learning process as well as not having the exact tools necessary to make the job more convenient. When completed I noticed there was an audible whine beginning around 35mph and sustaining as speed increased while I have my back glass open. I had verified pinion depth on mock-up using a shim stack equivalent to the factory shim (.056") and set pre-load to the paperwork I had received with the AAM gear set (18in-lb of drag). I had what I believed to be a spot-on pattern at .004" backlash.

I ended up taking the truck to a local gear and driveline shop and just let them do the front and diagnose the rear. The shop is reputable and had a number of friends recommend them to me. When they took the rear apart it was explained to me that my pattern on my gears looked perfect, and assembly appeared proper, with no concerns on the bearings or races, but the only thing was that my pinion and combined pre-loads were really light. They said they like to see upwards of 30in-lb on the pinion preload alone.

Upon receiving the truck, I noticed that the whine still persists, only higher pitched, quieter, and beginning at around 45mph. I ran the truck in 4WD for a moment at speed with no discernable noise from the front. I have AAM gears in the rear and Yukon gears in the front. It was explained to me that sometimes steeper gear sets can have a slight whine (which makes sense to me, I hear noisy gears in superchargers, transmissions and transfercases all the time), but when researching I get nothing but polarizing results of, "yes, they can whine," and "no, they should not whine, mine never have, someone messed up."

My question now is for any of you that are running 5.13's, do you have a slight whine that is audible whine with the back glass open? At this point I'm kind of at the stage of "screw it, run it til it stops"- not that I have any real concerns of failure, but mainly just an obsessive/compulsive desire to make it perfect.

User avatar
SimonandSimonBeast
250_Posts
250_Posts
Posts: 283
Joined: Wed Nov 20, 2019 10:53 pm
Model Year: 2013
Location: Upper Salford, PA

Re: 14+ 5.13 Gears, Noisy?

Post by SimonandSimonBeast » Mon Sep 21, 2020 1:58 pm

I am not an expert in this, but I had some crappy shop (hindsight is 20/20) put 4.10s on a TJ once. They totally screwed up torquing the pinion bearing. As I understand it, once you go too far you have to start over with a new crush sleeve. Mine was so bad it spun the pinion bearing race, which is no bueno. I had to take it to a real 4WD shop to get it diagnosed and remedied. I would get a second opinion.

Sent from my Moto Z (2) using Tapatalk

:rockon: :chug:

EasyDoesIt
250_Posts
250_Posts
Posts: 305
Joined: Fri Jan 05, 2018 11:32 am
Model Year: 2018
Location: Las Vegas, NV

Re: 14+ 5.13 Gears, Noisy?

Post by EasyDoesIt » Mon Sep 21, 2020 11:56 pm

My 5.13s don't make a peep at least I don't hear them over my cooper stt pros or engine noise.
Live: Las Vegas NV, Drive: 2018 PW & 2014 LR4

ScubaSteve
50_Posts
50_Posts
Posts: 54
Joined: Fri Jun 28, 2019 10:40 am
Model Year: 2016
Location: Kansas City, MO

Re: 14+ 5.13 Gears, Noisy?

Post by ScubaSteve » Tue Sep 22, 2020 9:42 am

EasyDoesIt wrote:
Mon Sep 21, 2020 11:56 pm
My 5.13s don't make a peep at least I don't hear them over my cooper stt pros or engine noise.
Even with back glass open? What brand gears?

cb1987
50_Posts
50_Posts
Posts: 232
Joined: Sun Feb 12, 2017 8:46 pm
Model Year: 2014

Re: 14+ 5.13 Gears, Noisy?

Post by cb1987 » Tue Sep 22, 2020 8:01 pm

i havent got my gears installed yet (been lazy and working on other projects) so i cant comment on any noise but the factory installed gears are dead silent. ive looked at both 4.10 and 5.13 gears but didnt pay attention to if one was 2cut and the other 5cut. supposedly the 2cut is quieter.

from the service manual backlash should be .007-.011. pinion drag 20-25inlb on new bearings. just a guess but your backlash sounds way to tight and possibly the cause of noise. only a guess as im not a gear expert

Colibri
1000_Posts
1000_Posts
Posts: 1711
Joined: Mon Jun 08, 2015 5:44 pm
Model Year: 2009

Re: 14+ 5.13 Gears, Noisy?

Post by Colibri » Wed Sep 23, 2020 12:35 am

My 5.13’s are quiet running, can’t hear them over other sounds with windows open. They’re nitro brand that I had REM isotropically superfinished and cryo treated and I set to .006-7 on the tight side of spec because one of the benefits gained in processing them in that manner is more stable contact pattern across a greater thermal range. .004 is way too tight for even worked over gears, much less stock
Central Texas and Houston area
2009 5.7 auto quadcab
Carli 3” coils deaver leafs 3” kings with 4 tube bypass rear and fr/rr hydro bumps
Howe steering pump and gear with hydraulic ram assist
Custom tube bumpers and white knuckle sliders
Creative fab trussed axle. rem polished and cryoed 5.13 gears with arb lockers fr/rr
Sharadon stage 2 545rfe with 3000 stall edge converter
Lots of other stuff lol

ScubaSteve
50_Posts
50_Posts
Posts: 54
Joined: Fri Jun 28, 2019 10:40 am
Model Year: 2016
Location: Kansas City, MO

Re: 14+ 5.13 Gears, Noisy?

Post by ScubaSteve » Wed Sep 23, 2020 4:09 pm

Thanks for the input, guys. I'm leaning towards backlash being a too tight. I know incorrect pinion depth can cause whine on accel or decel depending on deep or shallow, but I'm thinking with proper pinion depth and too tight of a backlash it'll whine consistently. It's too bad a lot of gear setup seems to be tribal knowledge and experience when it comes to diagnosis.

Here is a video that I took of the rear end before I took it to the shop. The current noise is the same variety, only higher pitched and slightly quieter coming in at a higher speed. Based on my experience with damaged bearings, and the descriptions I read about "whining" gears, I'm ruling out the bearing issues and concerns I had with that prior (I made some burrs I had to polish out on the seat of the bearing race bore in the housing for the pinion bearings from punching out the old races).
phpBB [video]

Clickable link for Tapatalk

Seems to me at this point with ~200 miles on these gears, I will either have to live with it or replace the gears to make it right.

EasyDoesIt
250_Posts
250_Posts
Posts: 305
Joined: Fri Jan 05, 2018 11:32 am
Model Year: 2018
Location: Las Vegas, NV

Re: 14+ 5.13 Gears, Noisy?

Post by EasyDoesIt » Sat Sep 26, 2020 1:01 am

ScubaSteve wrote:
Tue Sep 22, 2020 9:42 am
EasyDoesIt wrote:
Mon Sep 21, 2020 11:56 pm
My 5.13s don't make a peep at least I don't hear them over my cooper stt pros or engine noise.
Even with back glass open? What brand gears?
I'm somewhat familiar with loud gear noises from my 2004 Disco 2.

No noises from the 5.13s from AAM (rear) and Yukons (front). With back glass open or all windows open.

Steve
Live: Las Vegas NV, Drive: 2018 PW & 2014 LR4

ScubaSteve
50_Posts
50_Posts
Posts: 54
Joined: Fri Jun 28, 2019 10:40 am
Model Year: 2016
Location: Kansas City, MO

Re: 14+ 5.13 Gears, Noisy?

Post by ScubaSteve » Mon Sep 28, 2020 9:50 am

EasyDoesIt wrote:
Sat Sep 26, 2020 1:01 am
ScubaSteve wrote:
Tue Sep 22, 2020 9:42 am
EasyDoesIt wrote:
Mon Sep 21, 2020 11:56 pm
My 5.13s don't make a peep at least I don't hear them over my cooper stt pros or engine noise.
Even with back glass open? What brand gears?
I'm somewhat familiar with loud gear noises from my 2004 Disco 2.

No noises from the 5.13s from AAM (rear) and Yukons (front). With back glass open or all windows open.

Steve
I gotcha. Well, the truck is going back to the shop Wednesday, because I have since developed a leak at the pinion seal, so I'm going to take the opportunity to have them replace all the components and start over fresh. I am opting for the Yukon's in the rear as well due to the fact that the AAM gearset did not even have a checking distance engraved on the pinion and the overall quality of machining appeared to be a little bit lower than the Yukons I had for the front.

I guess we will see at the end of the week when its all said and done. Fingers crossed.

cb1987
50_Posts
50_Posts
Posts: 232
Joined: Sun Feb 12, 2017 8:46 pm
Model Year: 2014

Re: 14+ 5.13 Gears, Noisy?

Post by cb1987 » Mon Sep 28, 2020 12:53 pm

steve it almost sounds like your pointing fingers at the gears when clearly the setup was all wrong from the get go. i can assure you aam gears are top qaulity from usa and /or mexico. i dont know why they include that instruction sheet with the gears, it could confuse a person if theyre not familiar with whats going on. it says follow the factory service manual specs, then it also says a good rule of thumb is .004". .004 is 2x tighter than what the manual calls for on the rear. also ive checked the factory installed 4.10 rear gears and mine were .010 just like the manual calls for, and theyre dead silent , as are the fronts. i havent checked the lash on the factory installed fronts yet but judging by feel , theyre probly more like .005 or .006. manual says .003- .010 on front but some where in the middle like .005-.007 would be a safe place to be.

i was wondering if you couldnt adjust the carrier out a bit and get closer to .007 or so and maybe the whine would be gone but perhaps its to late and the gears have already worn in.

both my aam 5.13 gear sets are both marked with paint. seems strange yours have nothing

best of luck and hopefully you get it sorted out

ScubaSteve
50_Posts
50_Posts
Posts: 54
Joined: Fri Jun 28, 2019 10:40 am
Model Year: 2016
Location: Kansas City, MO

Re: 14+ 5.13 Gears, Noisy?

Post by ScubaSteve » Mon Sep 28, 2020 4:36 pm

cb1987 wrote:
Mon Sep 28, 2020 12:53 pm
steve it almost sounds like your pointing fingers at the gears when clearly the setup was all wrong from the get go. i can assure you aam gears are top qaulity from usa and /or mexico. i dont know why they include that instruction sheet with the gears, it could confuse a person if theyre not familiar with whats going on. it says follow the factory service manual specs, then it also says a good rule of thumb is .004". .004 is 2x tighter than what the manual calls for on the rear. also ive checked the factory installed 4.10 rear gears and mine were .010 just like the manual calls for, and theyre dead silent , as are the fronts. i havent checked the lash on the factory installed fronts yet but judging by feel , theyre probly more like .005 or .006. manual says .003- .010 on front but some where in the middle like .005-.007 would be a safe place to be.

i was wondering if you couldnt adjust the carrier out a bit and get closer to .007 or so and maybe the whine would be gone but perhaps its to late and the gears have already worn in.

both my aam 5.13 gear sets are both marked with paint. seems strange yours have nothing

best of luck and hopefully you get it sorted out
Not pointing fingers at the gears per se. I'll be the first to admit the backlash most definitely was tight, especially now that I've concluded the noise I am hearing is, in fact, the gears. I don't doubt the quality of the AAM gears, but I did feel the machining on the Yukon gear was a bit cleaner, and the lack of documentation (checking distances are typically engraved on the head of the pinion; there was some paint marker, but it was on there since before the gear was hobbed, as it was incomplete and appeared to be lettering) was of minor concern. Negligible concerns, I'm sure.

The shop said they had moved the backlash out to approximately .008" (I asked after the fact, but they assured me it was not as tight as I had it), but the noise was still there. With over 200 miles, I'm chalking it up as a loss. If my only other vehicle weren't a motorcycle, I'd have another go at it, but for now, I just need it right. For now this thread is simply going to serve as a tutorial of what not to do. lol :cash: :cash: :cash:

cb1987
50_Posts
50_Posts
Posts: 232
Joined: Sun Feb 12, 2017 8:46 pm
Model Year: 2014

Re: 14+ 5.13 Gears, Noisy?

Post by cb1987 » Tue Sep 29, 2020 12:48 am

ya some are engraved. nitros are. i have speculation why aam isnt engrave but its just speculation. maybe the person making your gears just dropped the ball and didnt paint them. my fronts were perfectly legible with white. rear did have signs of yellow but portions had been washed away. i suspect it was just in house jibberish that meant nothing to the end user. im sure it was placed there initially at the beginning of the machine process and the cutting oil had some solvent properties and washed some of it off. theres perfectly legible red paint over the yellow stuff. put there at the final stages no doubt, probly right before the gears were loaded in the shipping box

ive not seen yukons in the flesh but the packing boxes i seen said made in china. this was about a year and half ago. nitros ive seen first hand. machining looked fine. no better or worse than aam. supposedly nitros from korea according to the website but no country of manufacture was on the gears or box. aam has no identifying marks which seemed odd as most everything else they make has a company insignia. ( axles, diff covers, cad fork actuator etc). maybe we been duped and dana is making gears for aam :excited:




20200927_182017.jpg
20200927_194142.jpg

ScubaSteve
50_Posts
50_Posts
Posts: 54
Joined: Fri Jun 28, 2019 10:40 am
Model Year: 2016
Location: Kansas City, MO

Re: 14+ 5.13 Gears, Noisy?

Post by ScubaSteve » Wed Sep 30, 2020 11:33 am

Welp, I had spoken with the shop about my concerns, had them order the parts necessary, dropped it off this morning, and while speaking with them, they assured me gear ratios over 4.10 will likely make noise. Now, because of my concern with the noise, one of the primary reasons the truck is back with them, they are now unwilling to do the work. :doh: A competent shop shouldn't have to worry about being married to a vehicle over something that is resultant of bad setup, so it seems to me like they are not very confident in their ability to do the job right.

Forgive me if its not allowed, but for my fellow Kansas Citians, the shop is Gears Unlimited in Independence, MO. I should say, that they are not necessarily a bad shop, but their forte appears to be in racing applications where noise and such is not so much of a concern.

Spoke with a tech at Inland Truck, they agree that no matter the ratio, the proper setup should be quiet, so I guess they are earning my business.

cb1987
50_Posts
50_Posts
Posts: 232
Joined: Sun Feb 12, 2017 8:46 pm
Model Year: 2014

Re: 14+ 5.13 Gears, Noisy?

Post by cb1987 » Thu Oct 01, 2020 12:45 pm

sounds like that shop was more specialized in cars, perhaps race cars. i would like to hear their reasoning for gears beyond 4.10 being noisy as it makes zero sense. likely just a forwarning to cover their ass when they dont do the job right

while im not a mechanic by trade, my dad was ase master mechanic his whole life and taught me a couple things. 95% of repairs on my own vehicles i do myself but laying on my back in a driveway changing gears is just alittle more work than i wanted bite off. not to mention the contamination risk from dirt blowing around.

from my experience of working on various vehicles and motorcycles/atvs over the years, if you have correct tools and read/understand/follow protocols in a servcice manual you should end up just fine. changing gears is no different than rebuilding a engine in my mind. theres steps /procedures/tightening torques that have to be done correctly and youll be fine

my gears scheduled to be changed in a few weeks. ive talked with the guy doing the job and he said a few comments that seemed a bit uneasy but he assures me hes plenty qaulified for the job. before i finally hand my keyes over ill be having a final heart to heart talk with him to be sure he knows what the hell hes doing. ive already made it clear there better not be a bunch of sledge hammer marks because he doesnt have the correct tools. i do have some confidence as hes marketed himself as mainly a truck differential shop and has done a 5.13 swap on another '17 wagon about a year ago. from what i recall ,the swap turned out well but i havent been able to get back in contact with the truck owner to see what the long term results have been. i think with diff gears, they either go to shit on day one or they last hundreds of thousands of miles.

ScubaSteve
50_Posts
50_Posts
Posts: 54
Joined: Fri Jun 28, 2019 10:40 am
Model Year: 2016
Location: Kansas City, MO

Re: 14+ 5.13 Gears, Noisy?

Post by ScubaSteve » Fri Oct 02, 2020 10:38 am

cb1987 wrote:
Thu Oct 01, 2020 12:45 pm
sounds like that shop was more specialized in cars, perhaps race cars. i would like to hear their reasoning for gears beyond 4.10 being noisy as it makes zero sense. likely just a forwarning to cover their ass when they dont do the job right

while im not a mechanic by trade, my dad was ase master mechanic his whole life and taught me a couple things. 95% of repairs on my own vehicles i do myself but laying on my back in a driveway changing gears is just alittle more work than i wanted bite off. not to mention the contamination risk from dirt blowing around.

from my experience of working on various vehicles and motorcycles/atvs over the years, if you have correct tools and read/understand/follow protocols in a servcice manual you should end up just fine. changing gears is no different than rebuilding a engine in my mind. theres steps /procedures/tightening torques that have to be done correctly and youll be fine

my gears scheduled to be changed in a few weeks. ive talked with the guy doing the job and he said a few comments that seemed a bit uneasy but he assures me hes plenty qaulified for the job. before i finally hand my keyes over ill be having a final heart to heart talk with him to be sure he knows what the hell hes doing. ive already made it clear there better not be a bunch of sledge hammer marks because he doesnt have the correct tools. i do have some confidence as hes marketed himself as mainly a truck differential shop and has done a 5.13 swap on another '17 wagon about a year ago. from what i recall ,the swap turned out well but i havent been able to get back in contact with the truck owner to see what the long term results have been. i think with diff gears, they either go to shit on day one or they last hundreds of thousands of miles.
That's exactly what I feel. They told me I was scaring them with my concern about the noise, and I had mentioned to them that their work should speak for itself and that the noise is a result of setup. This is when they flat out told me they didn't want to do the work. Just as well. I work in a body shop, and I know how technicians and mechanics can be sometimes, and the disclaimer/excuse they gave me is purely a "we wanna' slap it together and call it good" kind of move.

It says a lot about a shop when one makes a BS disclaimer like that, while another one is confident enough to state out-right that such noise should never be the case. I mean, where are all the Toyota and Jeep guys running 4:56's, 4.88's, 5.13's, 5.29's, 5.38's, 5.71's, etc, saying its normal for those gears to whine? Why is it folks have the same setup that don't make noise, but other's do? Its just a load of crap. :lol: 4.56's in my brother's '05 Wagon don't whine. :roll:

Anyway. For now, as long as the pinion seal isn't leaking (they did replace that, but charged me despite the fact they were the ones that messed it up), I'm going to deal with the noise for a little while, while I work up the nerve to either get the other shop involved, or take another stab at it myself with my new-found knowledge/experience.

ramv
500_Posts
500_Posts
Posts: 602
Joined: Wed Feb 24, 2016 10:36 am

Re: 14+ 5.13 Gears, Noisy?

Post by ramv » Fri Oct 23, 2020 6:58 pm

The 5.13s I put in my '01 didn't make any noise. Even with a 0.25" wall driveline. My friend, a Land Rover mechanic, set them up. They were Dana-Spicer I put in the Dana 70.
2016 Laramie; Locker Bypass, WK sliders, 35" Toyo MT, 2Lo Kit, ProCal, Airbags/Cradles, Thuren 2.5" King w/ Boogie Bumps, Warn SDP6000

Post Reply