Recovery gear expense justification.

[Socalboarder]

So how does one justify purchasing expensive synthetic line and other recover gear?

A couple of weeks ago, myself and some buddies went wheeling in the mountains. There was a lot of snow on the trail back then, in fact I think I mentioned it in my post about the Thuren control arms and Grabber X3 I have on my truck. So long story short, the Jeep, Toyota, and the Ram 1500 got stuck and the PW came to the rescue! Yay me right!
Well last weekend, myself and the Toyota went back to “redeem” ourselves. We got on the trail about 9am, and everything was going well. We went past where everyone got stuck and followed the trail to where it dead ends. Successful trip right? Well, on the way back there is this hill that we had to go up. Going down was not even close to an issue as gravity is our friend in that case. So this hill is about ¼ mile long, and almost straight the whole way, with trees on both sides. The Toyota goes first and as soon as he starts the incline, he gets stuck. After his 3rd attempt, the PW needs to pull him out. Have I mentioned how much I love our winch! Now he’s all the way down and I take the lead now. I’m able to get past where he got stuck, but a truck length further, I stop.

The snow on the trail was super dry and brittle if that makes any sense. With a layer of ice on the trail itself and the powdery snow on top, there was just no traction to be had. The snow reminded me of “sugar sand” as they call it in Florida. While I was slowly making my way up the hill in 4 low, lockers locked, and also having to winch forward several times, the Toyota decides he is going try again. Not much further than the first time, he gets stuck. PW to the rescue, right? Well, sort of. Now behind me, I can’t winch him out as I have no snatch blocks. I have a tree saver, tow strap, some shackles, and 90’ of cable on the winch, which really is about 82ish feet (got to have some wraps on the drum of course).

All I could figure I could do is hook him to my receiver using my tree strap as a bridal on his truck, and the tow strap to connect the bridal to my receiver shackle. Now all three of my shackles are used along with my 2 straps. Tried to pull him in 4lo with lockers locked. No Bueno. He wanted me to get slack in the line and then go. I explained to him my straps have zero stretch, and are not meant to be used like a snatch/kinetic strap like he was thinking. So we reconfigured. Tow strap from his recovery point to my receiver, and then we winched from tree to tree using the tree saver and winch. Everything was working. We were so going to get up the hill. Then all of the trees on either side were all dead for the next 100’. Just for fun, I attached to the largest tree, and pulled it over without even moving. Damn! Then I saw a huge tree stump with some real good root structure. Hook to that, moved about 4 feet before it blew up. It look awesome, as the tree stump blew to pieces across the trail 50 feet in front of me. Like a bomb went off in the stump, and tree shrapnel everywhere.

Now what?????

He is still stuck, as the snow is up to my knees and the Toyota is dragging it’s under carriage across the snow. After some deliberation, I convinced the Toyota owner to leave his truck and we get out in the PW. He wanted me to go up and then come down and then winch him up the rest of the way. I explained to him that if I did that, and somehow got stuck, we were screwed, with no cell reception to boot. Also, it’s now 4pm, and we’ve been “redeeming” ourselves on this hill for 4 hours.
So we leave the Toyota, drive to the town in the mountains (45mins away), get cell reception and I call my buddy, who has a rig with a winch and all sorts of recovery gear. Well he’s not home and about 3-4 hours away. He did however let me borrow some chains. So I drive to his house, pick up 8 lengths of chain and we head back to recover the Toyota.
Using all 8 sections of chain, I hook his front end to my receiver, and now that the PW is further up the trail, I am able to winch from tree to tree again until 1.5 hrs later, both vehicles are atop the hill.

So back at the house at 1130pm, I ask myself the same question above, “How does one justify purchasing expensive synthetic line and other recover gear?”
That day was my justification. I now have 125’ of Masterpull Superline coming in. It’s the 3/8” rated at 29,700Lbs at only 7.5 lbs. Also I have 100’ Superline extension, 3/8”, 3x30K snatch block, and 2 extra rock guards for the winch line(s).

If people are interested, I can do a write up on the switch from steel to synthetic with photos.

[DamageWagon]

This is one of the exact scenarios to use a simple 3- or 5-point anchor for. Three or five steel rods, 3' long. Hammer them into the ground, windlass them together and winch off it. Porta-anchor! $20 in material and some weight in space. I cannot justify synthetic line, because I've heard too many stories of it breaking when you really don't want it to break. Shackles and a snatch block, well those are always good to have and you are always just one short to make the perfect system.


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[OffroadTreks]

Sounds like a story where the folks in it, couldn't figure out when they should of turned around.

The only justification I need is preparedness.

[Mule]

The snow on the trail was super dry and brittle if that makes any sense. With a layer of ice on the trail itself and the powdery snow on top, there was just no traction to be had. The snow reminded me of “sugar sand” as they call it in Florida.

<snow_nerd> "Faceted grains", or depth hoar. Faceting is the process that weakens snow layers (opposite of rounding), caused by temp gradients within the snowpack. They look like little hollow pyramids under a loupe, and that's the stuff that you cannot pack into a snowball. Shitty rotten snow that just sucks for everything.
With some slope angle, slab (ice/storm snow) over weak (faceted grains) + trigger = avalanche. </snow_nerd>

Did you have the tires chained up at all?



Even with recovery gear, I'd still rather get a sled stuck than a truck stuck.

[flattire]

Me?.....I would just wait until spring thaw.

[nhfd21348]

There are some cheap snatch blocks by rugged ridge that are rated for 18k. i think i saw them for like 28.99 a piece.
https://www.amazon.com/Rugged-Ridge-112 ... atch+block

[TwinStick]

Here is another thing that only took me one good stuck to realize, when in a complicated pull, using multiple straps/lines, etc.., it doesn't take long to realize that D-clevis's that are 3/4" do not have enough room inside the D for multiple straps, snatch block, and/or extensions. Thats why I have some bigger ones. During my lifetime, I have done, helped with, & seen quite a lot of recovery situations. Some very bad things have happened to others.

I always catch flack for using these D-Clevis's, but I have never had an issue. http://www.tractorsupply.com/tsc/produc ... _vc=-10005
They are bigger inside the D and allow for multiple straps & a snatch block. When using them & setting up your rigging, you have to make sure that everything is lined up straight, & D-clevis does not have any sideways load. Even the screw in pin style are not rated for sideways load. When it comes to winching/rigging/unsticking vehicles, an ounce of prevention is worth a pound of cure. You use what you have but use it as smartly as possible under the circumstances. Axle straps are another thing I use a lot when helping others, especially when they have no tow point.

But if you got the money, buy the best stuff you can afford.

There is no such thing as having too many D-clevis's. Especially if you have to strap the rear of your vehicle to something to complete a pull with the winch, using snatchblock/s and multiple straps/extensions.

[DamageWagon]

I stay away from budget recovery equipment. I purchased ARB shackles and now I'm looking to replace them because I found out all their crap is made in China. So much for buying a good brand! Columbus-McKinnon shackles seem like a great deal all round.


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[OffroadTreks]

I purchased ARB shackles and now I'm looking to replace them because I found out all their crap is made in China. So much for buying a good brand!

As long as they are remaining try to standard, just because it's made in china doesn't mean it's crap by default. I mean Apple & Samsung phones are made in China. They're not crap.

What you have to look out for, is discount products made in China, those are usually crap because they're using the lowest standards and cheapest materials possible. This is a big problem with metal products especially.

But some of your name brand companies are still making quality in China.

I priced out some Columbus McKinnon shackles on Amazon vs ARB, about a $6-8 dollar difference per shackle. So if you want to support American, it's not a huge difference. (Huge to me is over 10-20 or more)

But priced to cheap stuff, that difference is 10-15 - two 3/4 5 tons for 19 so 9.50 per shackle.

Choose wisely. Work with your budget to find the best bang for buck, but always pick quality over price when it comes to your gear.

[Reloaderguy]

You will exceed the WLL of most 3/4" shackles with a snatch block. You should have at least one 1" or larger shackle. It's probably a good idea to have several.

[DamageWagon]

I would rather buy American for critical applications. Australian gear by a good company, sounded like a good route. But I don't want to be the guy that suffers because a farm worker that now works on a factory for $0.30/hr screwed up the heat treating process and my shackle is brittle. An American making $30/hr can do that too, but we see what tends to break more. Buying American is the goal as well, aside from generally reputable companies like ARB.


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[cruz]

So much for buying a good brand!

http://www.acmerigging.com/

http://www.acmerigging.com/index.php/hardware

We use these guys for all the equipment ( cables, shackles etc. ) to yank out stuck 56,000 lb. concrete mixers .
Employee owned, great guys. I bought most of my stuff from them .

[Ducky's Dad]

It's winter. You are in the mountains. There is lots of snow, even in SoCal. There are millions of dead trees in the local mountains. All you should have needed was a set of tire chains and a Pull-Pal.

[TwinStick]

So much for buying a good brand!

http://www.acmerigging.com/

http://www.acmerigging.com/index.php/hardware

We use these guys for all the equipment ( cables, shackles etc. ) to yank out stuck 56,000 lb. concrete mixers .
Employee owned, great guys. I bought most of my stuff from them .

I didn't see any prices on their hardware. Is there a link ?

[Socalboarder]

So, contrary to my user name, I am currently located in New Mexico, (Military). The trail where we were was mainly a dry dirt road. The snow was only on the trail in areas on the northern slopes that were still in the shade during the day. Temps in the mountains are hovering right at freezing in the shade/canyons still and in the 50's in the sun. I would love to have a Pull-Pal, but at $500 there are some other recovery items I would buy before that. Tire chains are on the list of things to buy. Anyone know of a good brand that will fit 37's? Normally its real easy to figure out when to turn around. In this scenario, there were no indications of getting stuck as we went down the hill. Had it been just me, it would have been a non issue as I was able to make it out. It was trying to make it out with both vehicles. I had what I needed to get myself out. I hate not being able to help someone out, especially when its due to lack of equipment, and you can never really have too much gear.

[Ducky's Dad]

I got my last Pull-Pal RW14000 for $150, looked unused, and was local. CraigsList is your friend. My first one was $160 for an RW9000. Found it on CL in AZ and the seller just happened to have a friend driving to SoCal the following week, so no shipping. Even a smallish Pull-Pal is better than no Pull-Pal. Took a while to find them, but they are out there. You may be able to find a set of Hummer H1 chains that would be a nice fit on your 37s.

[cruz]

I didn't see any prices on their hardware. Is there a link ?

You'd probably have to call (old school)

The local sales rep would come by the yard at least once a month so I just talked to him . I can't remember the price I paid for the shackles, but I'm sure it was comparable to the market. I do remember the 100' 7/16" cable I custom ordered was $123.00
I can't say for sure, but I probably got a good deal because I worked for a good customer, plus everything was delivered free during his visits. Quality stuff, but might not be worth it ordering and shipping for others, I was lucky in this case.

[TankerZak]

I just bought the Warn heavy duty accessory kit. Another tree saver type tow strap for making a collar to both tow hooks and a few extra d rings and damper blankets and a spare set of gloves. And the wireless remote. I also have a folding shovel and snow chains (not cables). Probably more i can't remember.

[TwinStick]

I didn't see any prices on their hardware. Is there a link ?

You'd probably have to call (old school)

The local sales rep would come by the yard at least once a month so I just talked to him . I can't remember the price I paid for the shackles, but I'm sure it was comparable to the market. I do remember the 100' 7/16" cable I custom ordered was $123.00
I can't say for sure, but I probably got a good deal because I worked for a good customer, plus everything was delivered free during his visits. Quality stuff, but might not be worth it ordering and shipping for others, I was lucky in this case.

Well then, I guess if it is too much trouble for them to post their prices, it's too much trouble for me to call them. Why even bother to go through the trouble of having a website, posting all your stuff, yet not post prices ? Must be top secret ?

[DamageWagon]

Maybe because everyone gets a different price. If you order one, or order 20, or order 500 things, you get s different price. It's the 21st century, but that's the same way it's been forever so I don't see why you could get upset at that.


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[laramieskibum]

I'm in a similar situation every hunting season. Chains. When you need them there is nothing else that works and you don't need them often. I run 37"x12.5"r17 compatible chains from tirechains.com. Fit me but I'm not a wagon nor stock. Just don't turn lock to lock with them and watch your ebrake cable on the rear axle.


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[OffroadTreks]

You will exceed the WLL of most 3/4" shackles with a snatch block. You should have at least one 1" or larger shackle. It's probably a good idea to have several.

Yea I was just using that for comparison. I have 7/8 inch shackles, which I suspect are still too small technically. They are leftovers from my previous rig.

But for comparison, 1 inch shackle: http://amzn.to/2lxbwXv $63.80

Several on hand is an investment for sure.

[Reloaderguy]

You will exceed the WLL of most 3/4" shackles with a snatch block. You should have at least one 1" or larger shackle. It's probably a good idea to have several.

Yea I was just using that for comparison. I have 7/8 inch shackles, which I suspect are still too small technically. They are leftovers from my previous rig.

But for comparison, 1 inch shackle: http://amzn.to/2lxbwXv $63.80

Several on hand is an investment for sure.

The snatchblock doubles the force on the attachment point, you only need one or two 1" shackles. For the other attachment points the 3/4" should be adequate.

[adeluca73]

You will exceed the WLL of most 3/4" shackles with a snatch block. You should have at least one 1" or larger shackle. It's probably a good idea to have several.

Yea I was just using that for comparison. I have 7/8 inch shackles, which I suspect are still too small technically. They are leftovers from my previous rig.

But for comparison, 1 inch shackle: http://amzn.to/2lxbwXv $63.80

Several on hand is an investment for sure.

You will exceed the WLL of most 3/4" shackles with a snatch block. You should have at least one 1" or larger shackle. It's probably a good idea to have several.

Yea I was just using that for comparison. I have 7/8 inch shackles, which I suspect are still too small technically. They are leftovers from my previous rig.

But for comparison, 1 inch shackle: http://amzn.to/2lxbwXv $63.80

Several on hand is an investment for sure.

The snatchblock doubles the force on the attachment point, you only need one or two 1" shackles. For the other attachment points the 3/4" should be adequate.

True, It doubles the point force applied to the shackle connected to the eylet of the sheaved pulley (snatch) if the line angles between in/out line is parallel (0deg) & the line is attached to a fixed object. Thus our 15k winch at the last wrap pulling max rated load will exert 30k lbs_f at the centroid of the shackles inner radius.

However, if the line is attached back to the front tow hook, then both lines share the load, the snatch looks mechanically like a moving anchor & the load applied is still 2x of the outgoing line, which is only bearing ½ of the 15Klbs_f pull, thus the snatch only sees 15k lbs_f.

[DamageWagon]

You will exceed the WLL of most 3/4" shackles with a snatch block. You should have at least one 1" or larger shackle. It's probably a good idea to have several.

Yea I was just using that for comparison. I have 7/8 inch shackles, which I suspect are still too small technically. They are leftovers from my previous rig.

But for comparison, 1 inch shackle: http://amzn.to/2lxbwXv $63.80

Several on hand is an investment for sure.

Yea I was just using that for comparison. I have 7/8 inch shackles, which I suspect are still too small technically. They are leftovers from my previous rig.

But for comparison, 1 inch shackle: http://amzn.to/2lxbwXv $63.80

Several on hand is an investment for sure.

The snatchblock doubles the force on the attachment point, you only need one or two 1" shackles. For the other attachment points the 3/4" should be adequate.

True, It doubles the point force applied to the shackle connected to the eylet of the sheaved pulley (snatch) if the line angles between in/out line is parallel (0deg) & the line is attached to a fixed object. Thus our 15k winch at the last wrap pulling max rated load will exert 30k lbs_f at the centroid of the shackles inner radius.

However, if the line is attached back to the front tow hook, then both lines share the load, the snatch looks mechanically like a moving anchor & the load applied is still 2x of the outgoing line, which is only bearing ½ of the 15Klbs_f pull, thus the snatch only sees 15k lbs_f.

Negative, good buddy. This is a pure 2:1 system. Doesn't matter where the end of the line is attached, whether to the vehicle or a ground anchor. If the PULLEY moves, it is a 2:1 system, say 30klbs from our trucks. The lines would carry 15klbs each. Another way to view this is to count the feet needed from your line to move the load one foot. To move the snatch block one foot, you must pull one foot from the winch-side of your line and one foot from the anchor-side of your line. Hence why doubling the pull of the system also halves the speed. We used to do this all the time with rope rescue. All of the anchor-side attachments all go to one "bear paw". We were still capable of 10:1 compound systems.

If the END moves and the pulley is static, that is a 1:1 system and the lines carry 15klbs, and the pulleys load depends on its angle.

Your winch line's shackle only needs to be rated at 1x max load. Snatch blocks (pulleys) need to be rated at 2x Max load of winch. Obviously this doesn't account for Factor of Safety, or compound systems.


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