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Re: Winching and Recovery 101

Postby Ducky's Dad » Fri Oct 30, 2015 6:14 pm

you can add width to the spade if desired to get a better bite.

Pull-Pal did that on the RW16000. Looks like they took the RW14000 spade and bolted angle iron wings to the edges to make it wider. I'll probably do exactly that as soon as I figure out where this thing will go in the truck. Might come up with a hanger to carry it on the bed rail, similar to the way I carry my Hi-Lift. High-Lift on the right rail, Pull-Pal on the left, with the spade tucked behind the frame. No room in the tool box unless I ditch something else.
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Re: Winching and Recovery 101

Postby adeluca73 » Fri Oct 30, 2015 9:29 pm

Ducky's Dad wrote:
you can add width to the spade if desired to get a better bite.

Pull-Pal did that on the RW16000. Looks like they took the RW14000 spade and bolted angle iron wings to the edges to make it wider. I'll probably do exactly that as soon as I figure out where this thing will go in the truck. Might come up with a hanger to carry it on the bed rail, similar to the way I carry my Hi-Lift. High-Lift on the right rail, Pull-Pal on the left, with the spade tucked behind the frame. No room in the tool box unless I ditch something else.


So what's the difference in the 11k & 14k pull-pall, the size of the spade or the thickness of the frame?
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Re: Winching and Recovery 101

Postby Ducky's Dad » Fri Oct 30, 2015 10:51 pm

So what's the difference in the 11k & 14k pull-pall, the size of the spade or the thickness of the frame?

It's hard to know for sure because Pull-Pal does not have much info on their website, and when you call it always goes to voice mail. I did get a call back from Jan, the owner of the company and daughter of the founder. I asked your question, among others, and the answers were somewhat nebulous. I am certain that the RW16000 has a reinforced frame compared to the RW14000 (because Jan told me it does), but it also uses the same spade as the RW14000, augmented by a pair of bolted-on 2" wings that widen the spade from 14" to 18". The RW16000 weighs 57 lbs or 49 lbs (depending on which poop sheet you are looking at) while the RW14000 weighs 45 lbs or 42 lbs (depending on which poop sheet you are looking at). The wings alone couldn't possibly add 12 lbs (but maybe 7 lbs?). Comparing the 16 to the 14 is supposed to be easy because they sent me a drawing of the 16, which I will post tomorrow. When I asked about the differences between the 14 and the 11, Jan kinda/sorta implied that the 14 is stronger than the 11, but it was not a convincing statement. We do know that the 14 has a wider spade than the 11 (both spades are 24" high), but the 11 spade can be widened with DIY wings to give more grip. The 11 is listed at 35lbs. When I asked about expected failure modes when these things are overloaded, she didn't seem real sure but said that failure would generally occur as a bend on the articulated diagonal brace. Intuitively, that does not make sense because under load that brace is in tension and might snap or separate, but it seems that it would need to be in compression or in some rotational mode to bend. My guess (and it's only a guess at this point) is that the 14 and 11 use the same frame, but differ in the spade size. Jan also sent me a 1996 magazine test of several winch anchors, in which it appears that they successfully used the lighter duty RW9000 to winch an old F250, as well as a Ranger and a Jeep. I can also post that article tomorrow.

I suspect that the spades are interchangeable between the RW14000 and the RW1100, but it will be cheaper to just bolt on a pair of wings. I'll be back in AZ in late November and I may intentionally stick the PW in sand just to see if the Pull-Pal will get me out. I'll make sure there is another truck with me, just in case the Pull-Pal fails this test.
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Re: Winching and Recovery 101

Postby Cactus Red » Sat Oct 31, 2015 8:40 am

If it's an intentional stuck to test it, do it where you have an alternate winch point. That's what I did in a sand wash.

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Re: Winching and Recovery 101

Postby Ducky's Dad » Sat Oct 31, 2015 5:54 pm

Found this pic of a Pull-Pal failure. Site says it's the old RW9000, which it turns out is what I have. Found a small label on mine that I did not see when I bought it. This failure is more like what I would expect when overloading the Pull-Pal, and probably explains why some of the current models seem to have gusset plates welded to that section before they are painted or powder coated.
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Re: Winching and Recovery 101

Postby Ducky's Dad » Sun Nov 01, 2015 5:01 pm

Here is the pic of the Pull-Pal RW16000 that Jan Gremillion sent me. See her note about where it would fail if overloaded, which seems contrary to both logic and the failure pic I posted earlier. Note also the gusset that appears to be welded to the down-tube where the bolt goes through that tube.
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Re: Winching and Recovery 101

Postby Jack187 » Tue Nov 03, 2015 1:19 pm

Purchased one of these today:

http://www.denbigharmysurplus.co.uk/col ... hor-system

Total, including shipping was $353.24 from the UK to Wisconsin. I'll give a review on it once I get a chance to try it out.
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Re: Winching and Recovery 101

Postby Ducky's Dad » Tue Nov 03, 2015 1:36 pm

Purchased one of these today:

http://www.denbigharmysurplus.co.uk/col ... hor-system

Total, including shipping was $353.24 from the UK to Wisconsin. I'll give a review on it once I get a chance to try it out.

Good deal. Seems like shipping was not too bad. Any idea what the total weight is?
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Re: Winching and Recovery 101

Postby Jack187 » Tue Nov 03, 2015 2:03 pm

No idea on the weight. Shipping was a flat rate. If you decide to order, I recommend emailing them first, as they gave me a coupon code that dropped a UK tax (20%) from the items in the cart. The person I talked with was Keely Boyes. contact email is keely@denbigharmysurplus.co.uk
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Re: Winching and Recovery 101

Postby Ducky's Dad » Tue Nov 03, 2015 2:42 pm

If you decide to order, I recommend emailing them first, as they gave me a coupon code that dropped a UK tax (20%) from the items in the cart.

Thanks.

FWIW, I just spoke with Jan Gremillion at Pull-Pal, and she told me that the spades are not interchangeable between the RW11000 and the RW 14000, but they may be between the RW9000 and RW 11000. She also said the frame is heavier on the 11 than on the 9. The RW9000 is apparently the "original" Pull-Pal that they used for everything, until trucks, jeeps and SUVs started getting heavier. Then they brought out the RW11000 followed by the 14 and the 16.
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Re: Winching and Recovery 101

Postby Jack187 » Wed Nov 04, 2015 8:53 am

Ducky's Dad wrote:
Purchased one of these today:

http://www.denbigharmysurplus.co.uk/col ... hor-system

Total, including shipping was $353.24 from the UK to Wisconsin. I'll give a review on it once I get a chance to try it out.

Good deal. Seems like shipping was not too bad. Any idea what the total weight is?


I got the shipping notice today from UPS. total weight is 84 lbs.
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Re: Winching and Recovery 101

Postby Jack187 » Sat Nov 07, 2015 8:45 pm

I got the Nato Ground Anchor Kit from UPS on Friday. Shipping took less 5 days from the UK. It is every bit of 85 lbs. Very impressed with it. Other than needing a little paint, as expected, it is very solid. I plan to clean it up and throw some rustoleum on it later this week and will then post a few pics.
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Re: Winching and Recovery 101

Postby azracer » Sat Nov 07, 2015 10:45 pm

:nopics:
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Re: Winching and Recovery 101

Postby 2011TXPowerWagon » Mon Nov 09, 2015 9:19 am

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xjuif0HCVi4

Check out that video. It is a spade type boat anchor holding back a diesel ram
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Re: Winching and Recovery 101

Postby Will » Mon Nov 09, 2015 9:49 am

Those Spade anchors are nice, they use those type in the salt water tide currents down here. Pricey though. Probably $1200 for the one on the video.
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Re: Winching and Recovery 101

Postby Ammotroop » Mon Nov 09, 2015 10:37 am

Question for you all and this may have been answered somewhere else, I have a 2015 PW and I have looked all over the winch but cannot see if there is a spool release lever to free spool the line out. Can any of you tell me that I'm not crazy and I just am not looking in the right spot or is there really no clutch lever to free spool out the cable!!


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Re: Winching and Recovery 101

Postby Ducky's Dad » Mon Nov 09, 2015 11:22 am

I posted the Spade stuff last month. That one is $1200 new. I looked around locally for a used one and there are none. Some of the big yacht shops in So Cal have never even seen a Spade in the flesh. Seems to be a bit of a niche item.
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Re: Winching and Recovery 101

Postby 2011TXPowerWagon » Mon Nov 09, 2015 3:31 pm

Oh crap I didnt realize the price I was just excited lol.
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Re: Winching and Recovery 101

Postby Ducky's Dad » Mon Nov 09, 2015 6:05 pm

Makes the big Pull-Pal look like a bargain.
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Re: Winching and Recovery 101

Postby Colibri » Mon Nov 09, 2015 11:10 pm

I'm curious about the Brit/NATO anchor but at the same time I'm getting older and don't want to be hammering a bunch of shit in the ground in 100* heat to get unstuck then pulling it all back up. I have a 11k pull pal for my wrangler and while its heavy and a bit awkward it's still pretty easy to use and easy to recover from the ground with a little forethought. I've been considering buying a larger one for the wagon. Trying to think if the NATO anchor has some situational advantage over the pull pal in actual use or if it's just cheaper and harder to use? It's has cool factor at least.
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Re: Winching and Recovery 101

Postby Jack187 » Tue Nov 10, 2015 1:03 am

Ammotroop wrote:Question for you all and this may have been answered somewhere else, I have a 2015 PW and I have looked all over the winch but cannot see if there is a spool release lever to free spool the line out. Can any of you tell me that I'm not crazy and I just am not looking in the right spot or is there really no clutch lever to free spool out the cable!!


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Spool release on the 2015 is up behind the bumper on the right side of the winch as you face the bumper. It is a tight fit for the hand.
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Re: Winching and Recovery 101

Postby Jack187 » Tue Nov 10, 2015 1:31 am

Colibri wrote:I'm curious about the Brit/NATO anchor but at the same time I'm getting older and don't want to be hammering a bunch of shit in the ground in 100* heat to get unstuck then pulling it all back up. I have a 11k pull pal for my wrangler and while its heavy and a bit awkward it's still pretty easy to use and easy to recover from the ground with a little forethought. I've been considering buying a larger one for the wagon. Trying to think if the NATO anchor has some situational advantage over the pull pal in actual use or if it's just cheaper and harder to use? It's has cool factor at least.



It does have pros and cons. I assume the NATO system must have been somewhat proven in evaluation testing, as the US military version is essentially the same.

With the NATO anchor, you don't have to drag it any distance to set it. You know where the anchor point will be during the entire process. This could allow for more winch line to be employed for the actual extraction, and greater distance between the set anchor and the vehicle, as line length between the vehicle and the anchor wouldn't be consumed by setting the anchor.

It might also be advantageous when wanting to use it as an anchor point near a structure, or as a secondary anchor for a vehicle when trying to winch a heavier vehicle up onto a roadway without causing too much damage to the surrounding area.

Although I haven't used it yet, recovery looks easy. You spin the stakes using the eye holes. Once loosened, they slide right out.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xJOTL2cFeFU
If you need to relocate the anchor point repeatedly while getting unstuck, it might be easier than having to manually excavate a plow anchor by hand.

That said, employing it is a much more manual process, and it appears to be at least as heavy as the blade anchors. The actual space used for storage though probably favors the NATO anchor since it can be stored in about 6"x 6" by 40" of space .
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Re: Winching and Recovery 101

Postby Will » Tue Nov 10, 2015 5:47 am

Jack187 wrote:
Ammotroop wrote:Question for you all and this may have been answered somewhere else, I have a 2015 PW and I have looked all over the winch but cannot see if there is a spool release lever to free spool the line out. Can any of you tell me that I'm not crazy and I just am not looking in the right spot or is there really no clutch lever to free spool out the cable!!


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Spool release on the 2015 is up behind the bumper on the right side of the winch as you face the bumper. It is a tight fit for the hand.


It's the chrome rod to the right of the winch behind the bumper, you can stick your hand in there between the winch rollers and the tow hook, grab it, swing it down and all the way to the left. I stole Juday's picture from his bumper thread. :lol:

Image
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Re: Winching and Recovery 101

Postby Ammotroop » Tue Nov 10, 2015 8:33 am

Thank you very much, I kind of feel like an idiot for not knowing or asking the dealer, but hell I'm not so sure they would have known either. But thanks again!!!


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Re: Winching and Recovery 101

Postby Ducky's Dad » Tue Nov 10, 2015 9:11 am

You know where the anchor point will be during the entire process.

That seems to be a significant advantage of the NATO anchor. Not just because you put it wherever you can hammer it in, but because the Pull-Pal needs to be pulled some distance before it bites in. Might be a short distance, might be right where you set it, but you won't know until you put tension on the line. The NATO anchor has a cost advantage over the bigger Pull-Pals (RW14000 and 16000), but the Pull-Pal is lighter (by about 30 pounds for the RW 14000). I don't live in a cold climate, but I would think the NATO anchor is more likely to work on wet ground that has frozen, assuming you have a big enough sledge and enough energy.
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