4WD Issues - Opinions Wanted
- coder
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4WD Issues - Opinions Wanted
This all happened today while 4wheeling out in the desert.
Here are the symptoms:
1) When I unlocked the front axle (it physically unlocks) but the front locker light stayed solid and the rear locker light flashes like it won't unlock. If I turn off and turn back on the truck solid front locker light goes away.
2) The dash 4WD light come on in 2HI but goes completely off in 4LO/4HI (yet everything seems to physically work correctly)
3) I never get a serv4wd light
Any ideas, front axle locker actuator, transfer-case position sensor, other?
Here are the symptoms:
1) When I unlocked the front axle (it physically unlocks) but the front locker light stayed solid and the rear locker light flashes like it won't unlock. If I turn off and turn back on the truck solid front locker light goes away.
2) The dash 4WD light come on in 2HI but goes completely off in 4LO/4HI (yet everything seems to physically work correctly)
3) I never get a serv4wd light
Any ideas, front axle locker actuator, transfer-case position sensor, other?
Vehicle: 2007 Power Wagon Quad Cab - Factory Options (Inferno Red, Premium Cloth Bench Seat, Light Group, Automatic Transmission, Leather Steering Wheel)
Suspension: Carli 3" Hemi Coils, Carli Control Arms, Carli King 2.5 Pin-Tops, Carli Stainless Steering Stabilizer, Carli Trackbar | Synergy 1" Rear Shackle
Performance: Magnaflow Muffler | Magnaflow Y-Pipe
Wheels/Tires: Yokohama X-A/T 35x12.5x17
Steering/Drivetrain/Axles: Carli Front Diff Guard | Dynatrac Ball Joints | Mopar HD Steering Gear
Miscellaneous: Line-X Bedliner | Locker Bypass Switch | Mopar Rock Rails | Odyssey Extreme 65-PC1750T | Performance Friction Brake Pads | Weathertech Digital Fit Mats | Winch Thermal Protection Bypass
Suspension: Carli 3" Hemi Coils, Carli Control Arms, Carli King 2.5 Pin-Tops, Carli Stainless Steering Stabilizer, Carli Trackbar | Synergy 1" Rear Shackle
Performance: Magnaflow Muffler | Magnaflow Y-Pipe
Wheels/Tires: Yokohama X-A/T 35x12.5x17
Steering/Drivetrain/Axles: Carli Front Diff Guard | Dynatrac Ball Joints | Mopar HD Steering Gear
Miscellaneous: Line-X Bedliner | Locker Bypass Switch | Mopar Rock Rails | Odyssey Extreme 65-PC1750T | Performance Friction Brake Pads | Weathertech Digital Fit Mats | Winch Thermal Protection Bypass
- Pit Slave
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Re: 4WD Issues - Opinions Wanted
Wow, two in a week! Sounds like the transfer case position sensor.
Nothing's more dead than a horse in a glue bottle.
There are two ways to conquer and enslave a nation.
One is by the sword. The other is by debt.
John Adams - 1826
I guess you could say I'm a bit off center.....
There are two ways to conquer and enslave a nation.
One is by the sword. The other is by debt.
John Adams - 1826
I guess you could say I'm a bit off center.....
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Re: 4WD Issues - Opinions Wanted
Bingo! Winner!Pit Slave wrote:Wow, two in a week! Sounds like the transfer case position sensor.
coder, I thought you would know this, as many times this has come up.
PWOC #53
2008 POWER WAGON RC
My build thread. http://forum.powerwagonregistry.org/vie ... =13&t=2826
Moab '09, '10, '12, '14.
Rausch Creek - Summer '10, Spring-Fall '11, Spring '12, Summer '13, Summer '14, Summer '15, Summer '16, Summer '17, Summer '18, Summer '20, Summer '22,
AOAA Summer '19.
Russ
NRA - Benefactor, Golden Eagle.
2008 POWER WAGON RC
My build thread. http://forum.powerwagonregistry.org/vie ... =13&t=2826
Moab '09, '10, '12, '14.
Rausch Creek - Summer '10, Spring-Fall '11, Spring '12, Summer '13, Summer '14, Summer '15, Summer '16, Summer '17, Summer '18, Summer '20, Summer '22,
AOAA Summer '19.
Russ
NRA - Benefactor, Golden Eagle.
Re: 4WD Issues - Opinions Wanted
It is in a bad spot i think. At least for us guys that live in the salt belts anyways.
- coder
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Re: 4WD Issues - Opinions Wanted
I had my suspicions but I always like to get input from the guys in the forumPit Slave wrote:coder, I thought you would know this, as many times this has come up.
Last edited by coder on Thu Jan 08, 2015 2:08 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Vehicle: 2007 Power Wagon Quad Cab - Factory Options (Inferno Red, Premium Cloth Bench Seat, Light Group, Automatic Transmission, Leather Steering Wheel)
Suspension: Carli 3" Hemi Coils, Carli Control Arms, Carli King 2.5 Pin-Tops, Carli Stainless Steering Stabilizer, Carli Trackbar | Synergy 1" Rear Shackle
Performance: Magnaflow Muffler | Magnaflow Y-Pipe
Wheels/Tires: Yokohama X-A/T 35x12.5x17
Steering/Drivetrain/Axles: Carli Front Diff Guard | Dynatrac Ball Joints | Mopar HD Steering Gear
Miscellaneous: Line-X Bedliner | Locker Bypass Switch | Mopar Rock Rails | Odyssey Extreme 65-PC1750T | Performance Friction Brake Pads | Weathertech Digital Fit Mats | Winch Thermal Protection Bypass
Suspension: Carli 3" Hemi Coils, Carli Control Arms, Carli King 2.5 Pin-Tops, Carli Stainless Steering Stabilizer, Carli Trackbar | Synergy 1" Rear Shackle
Performance: Magnaflow Muffler | Magnaflow Y-Pipe
Wheels/Tires: Yokohama X-A/T 35x12.5x17
Steering/Drivetrain/Axles: Carli Front Diff Guard | Dynatrac Ball Joints | Mopar HD Steering Gear
Miscellaneous: Line-X Bedliner | Locker Bypass Switch | Mopar Rock Rails | Odyssey Extreme 65-PC1750T | Performance Friction Brake Pads | Weathertech Digital Fit Mats | Winch Thermal Protection Bypass
- coder
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Re: 4WD Issues - Opinions Wanted
is it a pain to change?TwinStick wrote:It is in a bad spot i think. At least for us guys that live in the salt belts anyways.
Vehicle: 2007 Power Wagon Quad Cab - Factory Options (Inferno Red, Premium Cloth Bench Seat, Light Group, Automatic Transmission, Leather Steering Wheel)
Suspension: Carli 3" Hemi Coils, Carli Control Arms, Carli King 2.5 Pin-Tops, Carli Stainless Steering Stabilizer, Carli Trackbar | Synergy 1" Rear Shackle
Performance: Magnaflow Muffler | Magnaflow Y-Pipe
Wheels/Tires: Yokohama X-A/T 35x12.5x17
Steering/Drivetrain/Axles: Carli Front Diff Guard | Dynatrac Ball Joints | Mopar HD Steering Gear
Miscellaneous: Line-X Bedliner | Locker Bypass Switch | Mopar Rock Rails | Odyssey Extreme 65-PC1750T | Performance Friction Brake Pads | Weathertech Digital Fit Mats | Winch Thermal Protection Bypass
Suspension: Carli 3" Hemi Coils, Carli Control Arms, Carli King 2.5 Pin-Tops, Carli Stainless Steering Stabilizer, Carli Trackbar | Synergy 1" Rear Shackle
Performance: Magnaflow Muffler | Magnaflow Y-Pipe
Wheels/Tires: Yokohama X-A/T 35x12.5x17
Steering/Drivetrain/Axles: Carli Front Diff Guard | Dynatrac Ball Joints | Mopar HD Steering Gear
Miscellaneous: Line-X Bedliner | Locker Bypass Switch | Mopar Rock Rails | Odyssey Extreme 65-PC1750T | Performance Friction Brake Pads | Weathertech Digital Fit Mats | Winch Thermal Protection Bypass
Re: 4WD Issues - Opinions Wanted
coder, doesn't look to be that hard.coder wrote:is it a pain to change?
2005 Power Wagon
- coder
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Re: 4WD Issues - Opinions Wanted
Where on the t-case is that is that, on top where the locker bypass plugs in?cruz wrote:coder, doesn't look to be that hard.coder wrote:is it a pain to change?
Vehicle: 2007 Power Wagon Quad Cab - Factory Options (Inferno Red, Premium Cloth Bench Seat, Light Group, Automatic Transmission, Leather Steering Wheel)
Suspension: Carli 3" Hemi Coils, Carli Control Arms, Carli King 2.5 Pin-Tops, Carli Stainless Steering Stabilizer, Carli Trackbar | Synergy 1" Rear Shackle
Performance: Magnaflow Muffler | Magnaflow Y-Pipe
Wheels/Tires: Yokohama X-A/T 35x12.5x17
Steering/Drivetrain/Axles: Carli Front Diff Guard | Dynatrac Ball Joints | Mopar HD Steering Gear
Miscellaneous: Line-X Bedliner | Locker Bypass Switch | Mopar Rock Rails | Odyssey Extreme 65-PC1750T | Performance Friction Brake Pads | Weathertech Digital Fit Mats | Winch Thermal Protection Bypass
Suspension: Carli 3" Hemi Coils, Carli Control Arms, Carli King 2.5 Pin-Tops, Carli Stainless Steering Stabilizer, Carli Trackbar | Synergy 1" Rear Shackle
Performance: Magnaflow Muffler | Magnaflow Y-Pipe
Wheels/Tires: Yokohama X-A/T 35x12.5x17
Steering/Drivetrain/Axles: Carli Front Diff Guard | Dynatrac Ball Joints | Mopar HD Steering Gear
Miscellaneous: Line-X Bedliner | Locker Bypass Switch | Mopar Rock Rails | Odyssey Extreme 65-PC1750T | Performance Friction Brake Pads | Weathertech Digital Fit Mats | Winch Thermal Protection Bypass
Re: 4WD Issues - Opinions Wanted
This is all I could find, doesn't even say what #3 is, but it looks like the sensor to me...
2005 Power Wagon
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Re: 4WD Issues - Opinions Wanted
Yep, that's where the bypass plugs in.coder wrote:Where on the t-case is that is that, on top where the locker bypass plugs in?cruz wrote:coder, doesn't look to be that hard.coder wrote:is it a pain to change?
PWOC #53
2008 POWER WAGON RC
My build thread. http://forum.powerwagonregistry.org/vie ... =13&t=2826
Moab '09, '10, '12, '14.
Rausch Creek - Summer '10, Spring-Fall '11, Spring '12, Summer '13, Summer '14, Summer '15, Summer '16, Summer '17, Summer '18, Summer '20, Summer '22,
AOAA Summer '19.
Russ
NRA - Benefactor, Golden Eagle.
2008 POWER WAGON RC
My build thread. http://forum.powerwagonregistry.org/vie ... =13&t=2826
Moab '09, '10, '12, '14.
Rausch Creek - Summer '10, Spring-Fall '11, Spring '12, Summer '13, Summer '14, Summer '15, Summer '16, Summer '17, Summer '18, Summer '20, Summer '22,
AOAA Summer '19.
Russ
NRA - Benefactor, Golden Eagle.
- coder
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Re: 4WD Issues - Opinions Wanted
Got a new sensor (dealer had one must be a common replacement item) and a 1 1/2" deep socket to remove it. I'm going to replace it and clean-up and seal off the locker bypass plug with some silicone hopefully this will do the trick.
Vehicle: 2007 Power Wagon Quad Cab - Factory Options (Inferno Red, Premium Cloth Bench Seat, Light Group, Automatic Transmission, Leather Steering Wheel)
Suspension: Carli 3" Hemi Coils, Carli Control Arms, Carli King 2.5 Pin-Tops, Carli Stainless Steering Stabilizer, Carli Trackbar | Synergy 1" Rear Shackle
Performance: Magnaflow Muffler | Magnaflow Y-Pipe
Wheels/Tires: Yokohama X-A/T 35x12.5x17
Steering/Drivetrain/Axles: Carli Front Diff Guard | Dynatrac Ball Joints | Mopar HD Steering Gear
Miscellaneous: Line-X Bedliner | Locker Bypass Switch | Mopar Rock Rails | Odyssey Extreme 65-PC1750T | Performance Friction Brake Pads | Weathertech Digital Fit Mats | Winch Thermal Protection Bypass
Suspension: Carli 3" Hemi Coils, Carli Control Arms, Carli King 2.5 Pin-Tops, Carli Stainless Steering Stabilizer, Carli Trackbar | Synergy 1" Rear Shackle
Performance: Magnaflow Muffler | Magnaflow Y-Pipe
Wheels/Tires: Yokohama X-A/T 35x12.5x17
Steering/Drivetrain/Axles: Carli Front Diff Guard | Dynatrac Ball Joints | Mopar HD Steering Gear
Miscellaneous: Line-X Bedliner | Locker Bypass Switch | Mopar Rock Rails | Odyssey Extreme 65-PC1750T | Performance Friction Brake Pads | Weathertech Digital Fit Mats | Winch Thermal Protection Bypass
- coder
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Re: 4WD Issues - Opinions Wanted
The replacement is done everything works fine now. The old sensor did not push in smoothly like the new one it felt like it was binding so this must be a wear item mine had 118k miles on it. It was not real hard to do it took about 30 minutes.
Vehicle: 2007 Power Wagon Quad Cab - Factory Options (Inferno Red, Premium Cloth Bench Seat, Light Group, Automatic Transmission, Leather Steering Wheel)
Suspension: Carli 3" Hemi Coils, Carli Control Arms, Carli King 2.5 Pin-Tops, Carli Stainless Steering Stabilizer, Carli Trackbar | Synergy 1" Rear Shackle
Performance: Magnaflow Muffler | Magnaflow Y-Pipe
Wheels/Tires: Yokohama X-A/T 35x12.5x17
Steering/Drivetrain/Axles: Carli Front Diff Guard | Dynatrac Ball Joints | Mopar HD Steering Gear
Miscellaneous: Line-X Bedliner | Locker Bypass Switch | Mopar Rock Rails | Odyssey Extreme 65-PC1750T | Performance Friction Brake Pads | Weathertech Digital Fit Mats | Winch Thermal Protection Bypass
Suspension: Carli 3" Hemi Coils, Carli Control Arms, Carli King 2.5 Pin-Tops, Carli Stainless Steering Stabilizer, Carli Trackbar | Synergy 1" Rear Shackle
Performance: Magnaflow Muffler | Magnaflow Y-Pipe
Wheels/Tires: Yokohama X-A/T 35x12.5x17
Steering/Drivetrain/Axles: Carli Front Diff Guard | Dynatrac Ball Joints | Mopar HD Steering Gear
Miscellaneous: Line-X Bedliner | Locker Bypass Switch | Mopar Rock Rails | Odyssey Extreme 65-PC1750T | Performance Friction Brake Pads | Weathertech Digital Fit Mats | Winch Thermal Protection Bypass
Re: 4WD Issues - Opinions Wanted
So, it is on the top but is it on the front side or back side top ? Looks like the front side to me in that drawing ???
Re: 4WD Issues - Opinions Wanted
Anyone know what happens (gauge-/indicator-wise) when the sensor fails open?
Haven't really dug into the issue... 4WD light stays on. Used to go off in 4HI, now it's just on all the time.
Previous owner's solution: electrical tape over the light.
Haven't really dug into the issue... 4WD light stays on. Used to go off in 4HI, now it's just on all the time.
Previous owner's solution: electrical tape over the light.
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Re: 4WD Issues - Opinions Wanted
Drivers side, above the transfer case linkage. Look for the wires going to the sensor. The drawing is looking at the front of the transfer case. On the left of it, is where iit goes into the tranny. The right side is the front driveshaft flange. #3 is the sensor. #2 is the linkage.TwinStick wrote:So, it is on the top but is it on the front side or back side top ? Looks like the front side to me in that drawing ???
PWOC #53
2008 POWER WAGON RC
My build thread. http://forum.powerwagonregistry.org/vie ... =13&t=2826
Moab '09, '10, '12, '14.
Rausch Creek - Summer '10, Spring-Fall '11, Spring '12, Summer '13, Summer '14, Summer '15, Summer '16, Summer '17, Summer '18, Summer '20, Summer '22,
AOAA Summer '19.
Russ
NRA - Benefactor, Golden Eagle.
2008 POWER WAGON RC
My build thread. http://forum.powerwagonregistry.org/vie ... =13&t=2826
Moab '09, '10, '12, '14.
Rausch Creek - Summer '10, Spring-Fall '11, Spring '12, Summer '13, Summer '14, Summer '15, Summer '16, Summer '17, Summer '18, Summer '20, Summer '22,
AOAA Summer '19.
Russ
NRA - Benefactor, Golden Eagle.
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Re: 4WD Issues - Opinions Wanted
Sounds like you have the same issue.Mule wrote:Anyone know what happens (gauge-/indicator-wise) when the sensor fails open?
Haven't really dug into the issue... 4WD light stays on. Used to go off in 4HI, now it's just on all the time.
Previous owner's solution: electrical tape over the light.
PWOC #53
2008 POWER WAGON RC
My build thread. http://forum.powerwagonregistry.org/vie ... =13&t=2826
Moab '09, '10, '12, '14.
Rausch Creek - Summer '10, Spring-Fall '11, Spring '12, Summer '13, Summer '14, Summer '15, Summer '16, Summer '17, Summer '18, Summer '20, Summer '22,
AOAA Summer '19.
Russ
NRA - Benefactor, Golden Eagle.
2008 POWER WAGON RC
My build thread. http://forum.powerwagonregistry.org/vie ... =13&t=2826
Moab '09, '10, '12, '14.
Rausch Creek - Summer '10, Spring-Fall '11, Spring '12, Summer '13, Summer '14, Summer '15, Summer '16, Summer '17, Summer '18, Summer '20, Summer '22,
AOAA Summer '19.
Russ
NRA - Benefactor, Golden Eagle.
- coder
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Re: 4WD Issues - Opinions Wanted
Anyone with a 4WD light that stays on needs to replace this switch they seem to go bad around 100k miles. Its a relatively inexpensive part retail price at the dealer is $77.95 they can be purchased online for about $60 + shipping.
Install tips; location is on top of the transfer case just behind where the front driveshaft connects, remove the small skid-plate just below the transfer case, unhook the transfer case shift linkage at the transfer case (pop it out of the rubber grommet) to improve access, use a 1-1/2" deep socket to unscrew the switch, the torque spec is 20 ft. lbs. or just snug when reinstalling.
Transfer Case Position Switch:
Mopar PN: 05083138AA
Install tips; location is on top of the transfer case just behind where the front driveshaft connects, remove the small skid-plate just below the transfer case, unhook the transfer case shift linkage at the transfer case (pop it out of the rubber grommet) to improve access, use a 1-1/2" deep socket to unscrew the switch, the torque spec is 20 ft. lbs. or just snug when reinstalling.
Transfer Case Position Switch:
Mopar PN: 05083138AA
Vehicle: 2007 Power Wagon Quad Cab - Factory Options (Inferno Red, Premium Cloth Bench Seat, Light Group, Automatic Transmission, Leather Steering Wheel)
Suspension: Carli 3" Hemi Coils, Carli Control Arms, Carli King 2.5 Pin-Tops, Carli Stainless Steering Stabilizer, Carli Trackbar | Synergy 1" Rear Shackle
Performance: Magnaflow Muffler | Magnaflow Y-Pipe
Wheels/Tires: Yokohama X-A/T 35x12.5x17
Steering/Drivetrain/Axles: Carli Front Diff Guard | Dynatrac Ball Joints | Mopar HD Steering Gear
Miscellaneous: Line-X Bedliner | Locker Bypass Switch | Mopar Rock Rails | Odyssey Extreme 65-PC1750T | Performance Friction Brake Pads | Weathertech Digital Fit Mats | Winch Thermal Protection Bypass
Suspension: Carli 3" Hemi Coils, Carli Control Arms, Carli King 2.5 Pin-Tops, Carli Stainless Steering Stabilizer, Carli Trackbar | Synergy 1" Rear Shackle
Performance: Magnaflow Muffler | Magnaflow Y-Pipe
Wheels/Tires: Yokohama X-A/T 35x12.5x17
Steering/Drivetrain/Axles: Carli Front Diff Guard | Dynatrac Ball Joints | Mopar HD Steering Gear
Miscellaneous: Line-X Bedliner | Locker Bypass Switch | Mopar Rock Rails | Odyssey Extreme 65-PC1750T | Performance Friction Brake Pads | Weathertech Digital Fit Mats | Winch Thermal Protection Bypass
- jeep_boy02
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Re: 4WD Issues - Opinions Wanted
Mine went out at 75k, same symptoms
2010 black pearl(PXR) on 35s, bypass harness, gooseneck, CAI, 3" magnaflow catback, bulldog hemi GT.... more to come soon
Re: 4WD Issues - Opinions Wanted
Sounds like a good part to have on hand or a spare of.
Re: 4WD Issues - Opinions Wanted
Yup.... nothin'. New one in and workin like a champ.
- Mr.Smith
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Re: 4WD Issues - Opinions Wanted
@ 3:30AM this morning, when I needed it of course...
4lo shows 4hi
Neutral shows 4lo
2wd shows 4hi
4hi shows 2wd
Sounds like TCPS to me, what do you think? Anyone else have a similar issue?
4lo shows 4hi
Neutral shows 4lo
2wd shows 4hi
4hi shows 2wd
Sounds like TCPS to me, what do you think? Anyone else have a similar issue?
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Re: 4WD Issues - Opinions Wanted
Yea, it's shot. Time for a new one.
PWOC #53
2008 POWER WAGON RC
My build thread. http://forum.powerwagonregistry.org/vie ... =13&t=2826
Moab '09, '10, '12, '14.
Rausch Creek - Summer '10, Spring-Fall '11, Spring '12, Summer '13, Summer '14, Summer '15, Summer '16, Summer '17, Summer '18, Summer '20, Summer '22,
AOAA Summer '19.
Russ
NRA - Benefactor, Golden Eagle.
2008 POWER WAGON RC
My build thread. http://forum.powerwagonregistry.org/vie ... =13&t=2826
Moab '09, '10, '12, '14.
Rausch Creek - Summer '10, Spring-Fall '11, Spring '12, Summer '13, Summer '14, Summer '15, Summer '16, Summer '17, Summer '18, Summer '20, Summer '22,
AOAA Summer '19.
Russ
NRA - Benefactor, Golden Eagle.
- Mr.Smith
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Re: 4WD Issues - Opinions Wanted
Hahaha! Now to acquire one & a new seal as well...
What's this sensor?
http://www.quad4x4.com/cgi-bin/commerce ... &key=11011
What's this sensor?
http://www.quad4x4.com/cgi-bin/commerce ... &key=11011
- coder
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Re: 4WD Issues - Opinions Wanted
Not sure, but that's a different switch than I installed....Mr.Smith wrote:Hahaha! Now to acquire one & a new seal as well...
What's this sensor?
http://www.quad4x4.com/cgi-bin/commerce ... &key=11011
Vehicle: 2007 Power Wagon Quad Cab - Factory Options (Inferno Red, Premium Cloth Bench Seat, Light Group, Automatic Transmission, Leather Steering Wheel)
Suspension: Carli 3" Hemi Coils, Carli Control Arms, Carli King 2.5 Pin-Tops, Carli Stainless Steering Stabilizer, Carli Trackbar | Synergy 1" Rear Shackle
Performance: Magnaflow Muffler | Magnaflow Y-Pipe
Wheels/Tires: Yokohama X-A/T 35x12.5x17
Steering/Drivetrain/Axles: Carli Front Diff Guard | Dynatrac Ball Joints | Mopar HD Steering Gear
Miscellaneous: Line-X Bedliner | Locker Bypass Switch | Mopar Rock Rails | Odyssey Extreme 65-PC1750T | Performance Friction Brake Pads | Weathertech Digital Fit Mats | Winch Thermal Protection Bypass
Suspension: Carli 3" Hemi Coils, Carli Control Arms, Carli King 2.5 Pin-Tops, Carli Stainless Steering Stabilizer, Carli Trackbar | Synergy 1" Rear Shackle
Performance: Magnaflow Muffler | Magnaflow Y-Pipe
Wheels/Tires: Yokohama X-A/T 35x12.5x17
Steering/Drivetrain/Axles: Carli Front Diff Guard | Dynatrac Ball Joints | Mopar HD Steering Gear
Miscellaneous: Line-X Bedliner | Locker Bypass Switch | Mopar Rock Rails | Odyssey Extreme 65-PC1750T | Performance Friction Brake Pads | Weathertech Digital Fit Mats | Winch Thermal Protection Bypass
- Mr.Smith
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Re: 4WD Issues - Opinions Wanted
Yeah it was one that TwinStick posted along with a transfer case position switch...just trying to figure out where it went...???