Diesel PW Build Thread

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nts007
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Re: Diesel PW Build Thread

Post by nts007 » Sat Apr 15, 2017 9:27 am

This mod!! Only one of its kind!!!

I could have done a super poser and put the swaybar and locker control there for fun
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08 ctd--mini max--thuren 3" coils and shackles--4.56 gears and lockers in pw axles--some lights--afe intake system--bd super b turbo--Banks w/m Injection--Dynatrac Balljoints--king 2.5"s--37" Hankook Dynapro MT--DOR Long arms--Custom emf track bar--Manual T-case swap--Full PW Under armor--PSC Hydro Assist

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Re: Diesel PW Build Thread

Post by nts007 » Thu Apr 20, 2017 9:26 pm

Alright this is going to be a long draggy post and I may have already gone through all this once before but here we go again. My wagon leaves are really starting to sag. The main cause is obviously the main couple springs as the longer leaves will show the most sag first. So here we go. I've re measured multiple times to get these sizes but even then the numbers are likely within 1% or accurate.
My goal is a 15% - 20% rate reduction and I still have 3/4 more height available in my thuren shackles if things get low.
I'm not going to post all the measurements just each leaves respective rate in pounds per inch. Alright so this is how the power wagon's leaf pack stacks up.

Main 1 - 54.72
2 - 61.76
3 - 90.06

4 - 59.27
5 - 139.35
6 - 113.66
7 - 26.16
Total pack rate 544.98lb/inch

I'm not going to post the factory 2500 cummins pack complete. Just the pack with the 4 original leaves and the Carli leaf add pack that's on it.

Main 1 - 46.53
2 - 59.39
3 - 84.29

4 - 118.99
Carli pack \/5-7
5 - 80.64
6 - 163.22
7 - 441.06
Total rate 1008.96lb/inch
(If you don't count number 7 then the rate is 567lb/inch

So what's going on. Well the Carli pack had a very high final I'm assuming to reduce bottoming out. There is actually an 8th leaf but I didn't add it is since it's a 12" long leaf and it's rate is like 2300lb/inch by itself.

Alright so you can see a small difference in the top 3 leaves in both packs.
The wagon top 3 mains have a rate of 206.64
The 2500 top 3 mains are 190.21
Why. Well they are close in thickness.
Main pw leaf is .38" and main 2500 leaf is .36". Both obviously same length.
Number 2 pw is .34" and the 2500 #2 is .36. But the 2500 leaf is 4" longer
Number 3 pw is .34" and the 2500 #3 is .38. But the 2500 is again longer by 3"

Well then so that's a comfortable swap. That will give me my main arch back and an 8% rate reduction in those 3. Alright good plan. Now what

Well let's look at the number 4 leaf. Well this must be the one that really does the comfort light load work

The 2500 #4 leaf is .35" and 45.5" long. The pw #4 is .25" and 41" long. Effectively half the rate in that one spring.

So using these 4 springs per pack the 2500 pack had a rate of 342lb/inch and the pw first 4 had a rate of 265lb/inch or about 23% less rate in the 4 main.

Alright so what have I come up with. Since I cannot just go with those 4 to complete the leaf I will utilize a 7 leaf pack again. So what has this farm boy figured.

Swapping just the top 3 Out of the wagon pack and replacing with the 2500 main 3 gives me an effective rate of 528.65lb/inch which is a total reduction of only 3%....well that's not good enough.

Alright so keeping the above swap and changing out leaf 5 and 6 out of the pw pack with the Carli number 5 and 6.... Gives me a rate of 519.5lb/inch ... So 4.5% is total lower.

Well. I know the solution.
Swapping the main 3 and only the pw number 5 with the Carli number 5.... Gives me 469.94lb/inch!!!!!! A 14.6% total reduction!!!
The carli number 5 leaf is the same length as the pw #5 except the wagon leaf is .30" thick and the Carli is .25" thick. Both are 37" long.

So the pack would look like this. Use the above info as reference

Main 1 - 2500 #1
2 - 2500 #2
3 - 2500 #3
4 - pw #4
5 - Carli #5
6 - pw #6
7 - pw #7
Total rate 469.94lb/inch

Best part I don't have to spend any money to find out if this is or isn't a bust. Have new u bolts already from years ago now.
Gonna pull the packs apart this weekend I hope if it's nice out.

Then need to figure out shocks. Again
08 ctd--mini max--thuren 3" coils and shackles--4.56 gears and lockers in pw axles--some lights--afe intake system--bd super b turbo--Banks w/m Injection--Dynatrac Balljoints--king 2.5"s--37" Hankook Dynapro MT--DOR Long arms--Custom emf track bar--Manual T-case swap--Full PW Under armor--PSC Hydro Assist

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Diesel PW Build Thread

Post by DamageWagon » Thu Apr 20, 2017 10:02 pm

Holy shit dude. How did you figure these numbers? Did you bolt each leaf to a plate and gauge them by weight? You did a lot of work here no matter how you cut it.

I did recall an email I got from Don on this exact subject. I just pulled it up. I don't know if anything was meant to be confidential so there are things I won't mention, but he said the factory PW leaf rate is right at about 275 lb/in. He told me the rate his long travel leaves run as well as a comparison but I'll keep that to myself. Remember that leaves are progressive and the heat treatment, length and thickness are used to achieve rate. Those calculated numbers are way too high. If we consider the rear axle to have around 3400lbs (I'm guessing) that is roughly 1700 per spring pack. Assume you have to compress those leaves by 8" to get ride height, then consider that leaves are progressive, your base rate is way lower.

This is not at all to be a buzzkill, and in reality doing the swap you suggested may actually work out perfectly! Since the parts are free, why not try it?


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Re: Diesel PW Build Thread

Post by nts007 » Thu Apr 20, 2017 10:21 pm

I used a couple different spring calculators. Thuren likely doesn't use the final leaves as part of his calculation only primary ones. A lot of what I read says most don't count the leaves after the leaf that has the banding retention straps (number 4 in this case) but going by each leafs length and thickness and width these are the numbers that 2 different calculators come up with. All these packs would be considered progressive as it increases the more you compress and different leaves arnt considered active until a certain point in the travel. For example the first inch isn't going to take 500lbs to compress and the second inch 1000lbs and the 3rd 2000lbs. It's going to be much different overall.

The way I've ran this gives less a true variable number and more of a direct comparison putting the same calculation method to both pack setups. With the goal of finding the difference in % if not the actual number. I could do this like high school math using x/y=z% as long as all else is created equal. This is as basic a breakdown as I can get.
I'd love to do the thuren leaves but I just don't have $1500 lying around right now. But I do have a extra spring pack. So if I can get my saggy springs out and reduce the rate by 14% then that's a win


Edit. Also if you look at my initial 4 pack rate I come it at 265lbs/inch for the pw so that's damn close to a base rate of 275 if that's thurens expectation of the pw leaves.

I also have never used the last 4" of compression in my rear shocks under any normal driving even when towing. I played with my rear valving and while I made it softer it made the rear axle get weird secondary bounces over little bumps.
08 ctd--mini max--thuren 3" coils and shackles--4.56 gears and lockers in pw axles--some lights--afe intake system--bd super b turbo--Banks w/m Injection--Dynatrac Balljoints--king 2.5"s--37" Hankook Dynapro MT--DOR Long arms--Custom emf track bar--Manual T-case swap--Full PW Under armor--PSC Hydro Assist

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Re: Diesel PW Build Thread

Post by nts007 » Sat Apr 22, 2017 10:32 pm

So I started getting the leaves apart. Miserable day. Below freezing all morning then light rain. Cleared for a bit. So I got this far. Bolts that hold the leaves together sheared. Wouldn't impact out. Heat and penetrant and nothing. Breaker bar and monkey wrench. Pop. Both. So I'm going to track down some bolts before I continue. When the second one let go everything kinda shot everywhere lol. Hurts when you get it in the knee.
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image.jpg
image.jpg
image.jpg
08 ctd--mini max--thuren 3" coils and shackles--4.56 gears and lockers in pw axles--some lights--afe intake system--bd super b turbo--Banks w/m Injection--Dynatrac Balljoints--king 2.5"s--37" Hankook Dynapro MT--DOR Long arms--Custom emf track bar--Manual T-case swap--Full PW Under armor--PSC Hydro Assist

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Re: Diesel PW Build Thread

Post by DamageWagon » Sun Apr 23, 2017 8:53 am

Hahaha that's not how you do it! You northern folk have it rough. I don't think I could get something to rust here in California if I tried. I'll be watching how this comes out!


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Re: Diesel PW Build Thread

Post by TwinStick » Sun Apr 23, 2017 4:02 pm

DamageWagon wrote: I don't think I could get something to rust here in California if I tried.


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:lol: I envy you for that ! :lol: Hell, I can look at bare steel, turn my head for a second, look back & it's rusted ! :lol:
2008 Red QC PW G56. No lift yet, stock size tires. It pulls a 2016 Starcraft AR One Extreme, 3500 lbs.
Load Pro 35 helper springs. 2015 A.R.E. MX Series custom cap. PCP front diff cover protector. Mag-Hytec 6 qt rear diff cover. K&N replacement air filter only. Dual grounded throttle body. Winch TPC bypass. Fab Four rear bumper. DURA BAK lined rocker protection. And a bunch of new front end stuff.

G-56 Gear ratios: 1st) 6.29:1 2nd) 3.48:1 3rd) 2.10:1 4th) 1.38:1 5th) 1.0:1 6th) 0.79:1 Rev 6.29:1 --- = 78.01613:1 Crawl Ratio
-------------------------5.94:1--------3.28:1-------1.98:1-------1.31:1-------1.0:1-------0.74:1-----5.42:1 ---- = 73.675:1
545RFE----------------3.0:1---------1.67:1--------1.0:1--------0.75:1-------0.67:1------------------3.0:1 -------=37.21:1

2013+ 32.47 crawl ratio...............Can you see the trend ??????????????

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Re: Diesel PW Build Thread

Post by nts007 » Mon Apr 24, 2017 9:04 am

Well it's on hold now. 70 kph winds and snow. Temps last week were 10-15°c an dnow today are -10 to -12°c. Only in Canada. Haha. My family is by Edmonton and they got much more snow so I won't complain. It's just that damn wind. This years project, a shop to work in. With heat.
Attachments
image.jpg
08 ctd--mini max--thuren 3" coils and shackles--4.56 gears and lockers in pw axles--some lights--afe intake system--bd super b turbo--Banks w/m Injection--Dynatrac Balljoints--king 2.5"s--37" Hankook Dynapro MT--DOR Long arms--Custom emf track bar--Manual T-case swap--Full PW Under armor--PSC Hydro Assist

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Re: Diesel PW Build Thread

Post by Colibri » Mon Apr 24, 2017 9:42 am

Better you got it in the knee than the nuts lol. Glad you're alright man. A socket head cap screw in 1/2" works perfectly for a center pin replacement. It fits in the spring pad centering hole like a glove. Get busy on a shop, that's brutal weather, being out in that makes you Sasquatch bait lol

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Re: Diesel PW Build Thread

Post by nts007 » Mon Apr 24, 2017 3:45 pm

Can't work on the truck so went to the city and got me some bolts!!!

Talked to the spring shop and they will cut and drill me a leaf for $30 each. 60 per side. And build me a complete custom pack for about $800. Things to ponder
Attachments
IMG_4628.JPG
08 ctd--mini max--thuren 3" coils and shackles--4.56 gears and lockers in pw axles--some lights--afe intake system--bd super b turbo--Banks w/m Injection--Dynatrac Balljoints--king 2.5"s--37" Hankook Dynapro MT--DOR Long arms--Custom emf track bar--Manual T-case swap--Full PW Under armor--PSC Hydro Assist

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Re: Diesel PW Build Thread

Post by nts007 » Wed Apr 26, 2017 7:39 pm

Alright so here's a quick update. I got the leaves apart without any more significant pain scenarios. So now theybsorted and waiting.


Oh and here's a teaser pic of what I'm getting Friday. For a next far more extreme project.......
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image.jpg
image.jpg
image.jpg
What to do....
08 ctd--mini max--thuren 3" coils and shackles--4.56 gears and lockers in pw axles--some lights--afe intake system--bd super b turbo--Banks w/m Injection--Dynatrac Balljoints--king 2.5"s--37" Hankook Dynapro MT--DOR Long arms--Custom emf track bar--Manual T-case swap--Full PW Under armor--PSC Hydro Assist

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Re: Diesel PW Build Thread

Post by DamageWagon » Wed Apr 26, 2017 8:09 pm

Your nuts are jumping with joy [emoji23] good work. I'm interested to hear how this spring intermarriage works out. What's the reg cab for? Rock crawler!?

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Re: Diesel PW Build Thread

Post by nts007 » Wed Apr 26, 2017 8:30 pm

Going to build a multi purpose bad ass hunting rock crawling snow crashing desert pounding total function over form bad ass pick me up!!!

Long arm front. Link rear. Cage. Power on tap. Maybe an AM radio. When I get it I will start an alternate build thread. It's going to be on the powerwagon frame. I'm so pumped and the wife is so pissed.
08 ctd--mini max--thuren 3" coils and shackles--4.56 gears and lockers in pw axles--some lights--afe intake system--bd super b turbo--Banks w/m Injection--Dynatrac Balljoints--king 2.5"s--37" Hankook Dynapro MT--DOR Long arms--Custom emf track bar--Manual T-case swap--Full PW Under armor--PSC Hydro Assist

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Re: Diesel PW Build Thread

Post by Colibri » Thu Apr 27, 2017 9:00 am

SHIT!!!!! That's so badass, I've wanted to build a reg cab for years, I'm so excited to see what you do!

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Re: Diesel PW Build Thread

Post by nts007 » Fri Apr 28, 2017 5:45 pm

I .... did something very bad.
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08 ctd--mini max--thuren 3" coils and shackles--4.56 gears and lockers in pw axles--some lights--afe intake system--bd super b turbo--Banks w/m Injection--Dynatrac Balljoints--king 2.5"s--37" Hankook Dynapro MT--DOR Long arms--Custom emf track bar--Manual T-case swap--Full PW Under armor--PSC Hydro Assist

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Re: Diesel PW Build Thread

Post by nts007 » Fri Apr 28, 2017 5:57 pm

So very bad
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IMG_4659.JPG
08 ctd--mini max--thuren 3" coils and shackles--4.56 gears and lockers in pw axles--some lights--afe intake system--bd super b turbo--Banks w/m Injection--Dynatrac Balljoints--king 2.5"s--37" Hankook Dynapro MT--DOR Long arms--Custom emf track bar--Manual T-case swap--Full PW Under armor--PSC Hydro Assist

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Re: Diesel PW Build Thread

Post by nts007 » Fri Apr 28, 2017 6:15 pm

Oops I did it again :doh:
Attachments
IMG_4661.JPG
08 ctd--mini max--thuren 3" coils and shackles--4.56 gears and lockers in pw axles--some lights--afe intake system--bd super b turbo--Banks w/m Injection--Dynatrac Balljoints--king 2.5"s--37" Hankook Dynapro MT--DOR Long arms--Custom emf track bar--Manual T-case swap--Full PW Under armor--PSC Hydro Assist

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Re: Diesel PW Build Thread

Post by DamageWagon » Fri Apr 28, 2017 8:25 pm

You bring out the school girl inside me. I get giddy when I see your stuff. Hopefully your wife is having the same reaction [emoji23]

Looking like a stud dude! Can I ask how much a truck like that goes for up there?

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Re: Diesel PW Build Thread

Post by nts007 » Fri Apr 28, 2017 11:34 pm

That's a tough one to be accurate at answering. It depends who is selling I guess. Most 3rd gens with 300-400k km are listed between 14-25 grand. Condition and mods and whatnot people feel their trucks are worth. Realistic if you can get a 3rd gen with under 300k for around 18-20 grand in good shape your alright. That's the more realistic upper end. I've seen some beat up pieces of shit listed at 18 and they can't sell but drop to 12k and its gone in a day. I've seen some 3500 full load low km trucks listed over 35grand still. The 3rd gens are literally the same price as most of the early 4th gens not saying they sell at that price but you know



Anyway some quick info on these new tires. Nitto trail grapplers 37x12.5-17. 10 ply. Yada Yada. I really didn't want these tires. Not a fan. But I got them installed for $1400. When normally it's closer to $2200. They sell normally here for $580 per tire depending on where you shop but that's near average retail.
They were sitting at the tire shop for awhile and they were having to ship them back to manufacture. And I have them a lo ball offer and they countered and eventually I got them down to $340 per tire installed.

First impressions? Holy squishy. I set em to 45psi front and 40 rear. Drove for 20 min. Had to bump the fronts to 48 and the rears down to 35. But the front is still squishy and it feels like the sidewall flex is significant in lateral transitions. Very mushy. Too late to change now. Gonna play with pressures more.

Also these tires must be narrower than the cooper St maxx. I get more steering angle with these with less rub than the coopers. Wtf. Oh well that's good then. The coopers were much more stable though. But I'll give em a fair chance. Lots of tread depth though. But I've heard they wear fast so I'm gonna keep an eye on them.

The cooper st maxx were a solid tire. Fairly mild compared to the hankooks and the nittos but balances well and rolls round. Traction on highway and gravel is excellent. They did very well through the winter snow and decent on ice. I would do them again but would stud them. I'm keeping the old set to finish off next winter. Still have 10/32 left on them with 55k km on them so they wore very well too. If I had to choose coopers or hankooks I would go back to the hankooks though. Studded of course. But they were a good tire so no complaints. Would defiantly use them again if the price is right.

Here's some final pictures
Attachments
image.jpg
image.jpg
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That's a quarter. Canadian yea but same size as u merican ones
image.jpg
08 ctd--mini max--thuren 3" coils and shackles--4.56 gears and lockers in pw axles--some lights--afe intake system--bd super b turbo--Banks w/m Injection--Dynatrac Balljoints--king 2.5"s--37" Hankook Dynapro MT--DOR Long arms--Custom emf track bar--Manual T-case swap--Full PW Under armor--PSC Hydro Assist

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Re: Diesel PW Build Thread

Post by DamageWagon » Sat Apr 29, 2017 7:41 am

You guys are the same way with your cummins trucks as we are. Put Cummins on something and the value never goes down from brand new pricing. Reminds me of a local guy asking 25k (US dollars) for a 2nd gen 12v quad cab with aggressive fueling mods and a lift. You could see the frame was bent in the pictures but he wouldn't drop the price haha.

Nice tires, sweet price man! Running them on stock wheels might be part of the squishiness. You might want a wider wheel, but I couldn't back that up with any experience, just my thought.

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Re: Diesel PW Build Thread

Post by nts007 » Sat Apr 29, 2017 1:01 pm

Changed up my lighting. Got rid of the useless light bar and threw 2 vision x led pods. Going to make them ditch lighting. These little bastards are very powerful and give a ton of useable light. They used to be my high beams on my talon. 2 were 10 times more useable than factory highs. Nice this cost me just some time
Attachments
IMG_4670.JPG
IMG_4671.JPG
08 ctd--mini max--thuren 3" coils and shackles--4.56 gears and lockers in pw axles--some lights--afe intake system--bd super b turbo--Banks w/m Injection--Dynatrac Balljoints--king 2.5"s--37" Hankook Dynapro MT--DOR Long arms--Custom emf track bar--Manual T-case swap--Full PW Under armor--PSC Hydro Assist

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Re: Diesel PW Build Thread

Post by DamageWagon » Sat Apr 29, 2017 1:15 pm

Did you sell one of your children? Affording these projects and coercing the wife must have been a feat! lol

Power to you man [emoji2]

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Re: Diesel PW Build Thread

Post by nts007 » Sat Apr 29, 2017 1:58 pm

That's funny being I've threatened to sell my kids on more than one occasion. So far these projects haven't cost me that much. Well. Yea we will stick with that. I'm trying to save up for Thuren shocks and get off these pos bilstien 2.0s but that may have to wait another year. My shop...if I manage this year... is gonna run me close to 50 grand
08 ctd--mini max--thuren 3" coils and shackles--4.56 gears and lockers in pw axles--some lights--afe intake system--bd super b turbo--Banks w/m Injection--Dynatrac Balljoints--king 2.5"s--37" Hankook Dynapro MT--DOR Long arms--Custom emf track bar--Manual T-case swap--Full PW Under armor--PSC Hydro Assist

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Re: Diesel PW Build Thread

Post by nts007 » Sat Apr 29, 2017 4:59 pm

Guess what I'm going to get tomorrow.....
Attachments
IMG_4672.JPG
08 ctd--mini max--thuren 3" coils and shackles--4.56 gears and lockers in pw axles--some lights--afe intake system--bd super b turbo--Banks w/m Injection--Dynatrac Balljoints--king 2.5"s--37" Hankook Dynapro MT--DOR Long arms--Custom emf track bar--Manual T-case swap--Full PW Under armor--PSC Hydro Assist

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Re: Diesel PW Build Thread

Post by DamageWagon » Sat Apr 29, 2017 5:35 pm

A shop is an expensive thing to buy outright, but man is it nice! I'm assuming you're doing a high bay with a few doors?

You bringing home the wagon? Speaking of you still never said how you came upon a power wagon in almost complete form...

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