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Re: Diesel PW Build Thread

Postby nts007 » Sat Apr 15, 2017 9:27 am

This mod!! Only one of its kind!!!

I could have done a super poser and put the swaybar and locker control there for fun
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08 ctd--mini max--thuren 3" coils and shackles--4.56 gears and lockers in pw axles--some lights--afe intake system--bd super b turbo--Banks w/m Injection--Dynatrac Balljoints--bilstein 7100s--37" Cooper ST-Maxx--DOR Long arms--Carli track bar--Manual T-case swap--Full PW Under armor--PSC Hydro Assist
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Re: Diesel PW Build Thread

Postby nts007 » Thu Apr 20, 2017 9:26 pm

Alright this is going to be a long draggy post and I may have already gone through all this once before but here we go again. My wagon leaves are really starting to sag. The main cause is obviously the main couple springs as the longer leaves will show the most sag first. So here we go. I've re measured multiple times to get these sizes but even then the numbers are likely within 1% or accurate.
My goal is a 15% - 20% rate reduction and I still have 3/4 more height available in my thuren shackles if things get low.
I'm not going to post all the measurements just each leaves respective rate in pounds per inch. Alright so this is how the power wagon's leaf pack stacks up.

Main 1 - 54.72
2 - 61.76
3 - 90.06

4 - 59.27
5 - 139.35
6 - 113.66
7 - 26.16
Total pack rate 544.98lb/inch

I'm not going to post the factory 2500 cummins pack complete. Just the pack with the 4 original leaves and the Carli leaf add pack that's on it.

Main 1 - 46.53
2 - 59.39
3 - 84.29

4 - 118.99
Carli pack \/5-7
5 - 80.64
6 - 163.22
7 - 441.06
Total rate 1008.96lb/inch
(If you don't count number 7 then the rate is 567lb/inch

So what's going on. Well the Carli pack had a very high final I'm assuming to reduce bottoming out. There is actually an 8th leaf but I didn't add it is since it's a 12" long leaf and it's rate is like 2300lb/inch by itself.

Alright so you can see a small difference in the top 3 leaves in both packs.
The wagon top 3 mains have a rate of 206.64
The 2500 top 3 mains are 190.21
Why. Well they are close in thickness.
Main pw leaf is .38" and main 2500 leaf is .36". Both obviously same length.
Number 2 pw is .34" and the 2500 #2 is .36. But the 2500 leaf is 4" longer
Number 3 pw is .34" and the 2500 #3 is .38. But the 2500 is again longer by 3"

Well then so that's a comfortable swap. That will give me my main arch back and an 8% rate reduction in those 3. Alright good plan. Now what

Well let's look at the number 4 leaf. Well this must be the one that really does the comfort light load work

The 2500 #4 leaf is .35" and 45.5" long. The pw #4 is .25" and 41" long. Effectively half the rate in that one spring.

So using these 4 springs per pack the 2500 pack had a rate of 342lb/inch and the pw first 4 had a rate of 265lb/inch or about 23% less rate in the 4 main.

Alright so what have I come up with. Since I cannot just go with those 4 to complete the leaf I will utilize a 7 leaf pack again. So what has this farm boy figured.

Swapping just the top 3 Out of the wagon pack and replacing with the 2500 main 3 gives me an effective rate of 528.65lb/inch which is a total reduction of only 3%....well that's not good enough.

Alright so keeping the above swap and changing out leaf 5 and 6 out of the pw pack with the Carli number 5 and 6.... Gives me a rate of 519.5lb/inch ... So 4.5% is total lower.

Well. I know the solution.
Swapping the main 3 and only the pw number 5 with the Carli number 5.... Gives me 469.94lb/inch!!!!!! A 14.6% total reduction!!!
The carli number 5 leaf is the same length as the pw #5 except the wagon leaf is .30" thick and the Carli is .25" thick. Both are 37" long.

So the pack would look like this. Use the above info as reference

Main 1 - 2500 #1
2 - 2500 #2
3 - 2500 #3
4 - pw #4
5 - Carli #5
6 - pw #6
7 - pw #7
Total rate 469.94lb/inch

Best part I don't have to spend any money to find out if this is or isn't a bust. Have new u bolts already from years ago now.
Gonna pull the packs apart this weekend I hope if it's nice out.

Then need to figure out shocks. Again
08 ctd--mini max--thuren 3" coils and shackles--4.56 gears and lockers in pw axles--some lights--afe intake system--bd super b turbo--Banks w/m Injection--Dynatrac Balljoints--bilstein 7100s--37" Cooper ST-Maxx--DOR Long arms--Carli track bar--Manual T-case swap--Full PW Under armor--PSC Hydro Assist
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Diesel PW Build Thread

Postby DamageWagon » Thu Apr 20, 2017 10:02 pm

Holy shit dude. How did you figure these numbers? Did you bolt each leaf to a plate and gauge them by weight? You did a lot of work here no matter how you cut it.

I did recall an email I got from Don on this exact subject. I just pulled it up. I don't know if anything was meant to be confidential so there are things I won't mention, but he said the factory PW leaf rate is right at about 275 lb/in. He told me the rate his long travel leaves run as well as a comparison but I'll keep that to myself. Remember that leaves are progressive and the heat treatment, length and thickness are used to achieve rate. Those calculated numbers are way too high. If we consider the rear axle to have around 3400lbs (I'm guessing) that is roughly 1700 per spring pack. Assume you have to compress those leaves by 8" to get ride height, then consider that leaves are progressive, your base rate is way lower.

This is not at all to be a buzzkill, and in reality doing the swap you suggested may actually work out perfectly! Since the parts are free, why not try it?


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Re: Diesel PW Build Thread

Postby nts007 » Thu Apr 20, 2017 10:21 pm

I used a couple different spring calculators. Thuren likely doesn't use the final leaves as part of his calculation only primary ones. A lot of what I read says most don't count the leaves after the leaf that has the banding retention straps (number 4 in this case) but going by each leafs length and thickness and width these are the numbers that 2 different calculators come up with. All these packs would be considered progressive as it increases the more you compress and different leaves arnt considered active until a certain point in the travel. For example the first inch isn't going to take 500lbs to compress and the second inch 1000lbs and the 3rd 2000lbs. It's going to be much different overall.

The way I've ran this gives less a true variable number and more of a direct comparison putting the same calculation method to both pack setups. With the goal of finding the difference in % if not the actual number. I could do this like high school math using x/y=z% as long as all else is created equal. This is as basic a breakdown as I can get.
I'd love to do the thuren leaves but I just don't have $1500 lying around right now. But I do have a extra spring pack. So if I can get my saggy springs out and reduce the rate by 14% then that's a win


Edit. Also if you look at my initial 4 pack rate I come it at 265lbs/inch for the pw so that's damn close to a base rate of 275 if that's thurens expectation of the pw leaves.

I also have never used the last 4" of compression in my rear shocks under any normal driving even when towing. I played with my rear valving and while I made it softer it made the rear axle get weird secondary bounces over little bumps.
08 ctd--mini max--thuren 3" coils and shackles--4.56 gears and lockers in pw axles--some lights--afe intake system--bd super b turbo--Banks w/m Injection--Dynatrac Balljoints--bilstein 7100s--37" Cooper ST-Maxx--DOR Long arms--Carli track bar--Manual T-case swap--Full PW Under armor--PSC Hydro Assist
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Re: Diesel PW Build Thread

Postby nts007 » Sat Apr 22, 2017 10:32 pm

So I started getting the leaves apart. Miserable day. Below freezing all morning then light rain. Cleared for a bit. So I got this far. Bolts that hold the leaves together sheared. Wouldn't impact out. Heat and penetrant and nothing. Breaker bar and monkey wrench. Pop. Both. So I'm going to track down some bolts before I continue. When the second one let go everything kinda shot everywhere lol. Hurts when you get it in the knee.
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image.jpg
image.jpg
08 ctd--mini max--thuren 3" coils and shackles--4.56 gears and lockers in pw axles--some lights--afe intake system--bd super b turbo--Banks w/m Injection--Dynatrac Balljoints--bilstein 7100s--37" Cooper ST-Maxx--DOR Long arms--Carli track bar--Manual T-case swap--Full PW Under armor--PSC Hydro Assist
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Re: Diesel PW Build Thread

Postby DamageWagon » Sun Apr 23, 2017 8:53 am

Hahaha that's not how you do it! You northern folk have it rough. I don't think I could get something to rust here in California if I tried. I'll be watching how this comes out!


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Re: Diesel PW Build Thread

Postby TwinStick » Sun Apr 23, 2017 4:02 pm

DamageWagon wrote: I don't think I could get something to rust here in California if I tried.


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:lol: I envy you for that ! :lol: Hell, I can look at bare steel, turn my head for a second, look back & it's rusted ! :lol:
2008 Red QC PW G56. No lift yet, stock size tires. It pulls a 2016 Starcraft AR One Extreme, 3500 lbs.
Load Pro 35 helper springs. 2015 A.R.E. MX Series custom cap. PCP front diff cover protector. Mag-Hytec 6 qt rear diff cover. K&N replacement air filter only. Dual grounded throttle body. Winch TPC bypass. Fab Four rear bumper. DURA BAK lined rocker protection. And a bunch of new front end stuff.

G-56 Gear ratios: 1st) 6.29:1 2nd) 3.48:1 3rd) 2.10:1 4th) 1.38:1 5th) 1.0:1 6th) 0.79:1 Rev 6.29:1 --- = 78.01613:1 Crawl Ratio
-------------------------5.94:1--------3.28:1-------1.98:1-------1.31:1-------1.0:1-------0.74:1-----5.42:1 ---- = 73.675:1
545RFE----------------3.0:1---------1.67:1--------1.0:1--------0.75:1-------0.67:1------------------3.0:1 -------=37.21:1

2013+ 32.47 crawl ratio...............Can you see the trend ??????????????
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Re: Diesel PW Build Thread

Postby nts007 » Mon Apr 24, 2017 9:04 am

Well it's on hold now. 70 kph winds and snow. Temps last week were 10-15°c an dnow today are -10 to -12°c. Only in Canada. Haha. My family is by Edmonton and they got much more snow so I won't complain. It's just that damn wind. This years project, a shop to work in. With heat.
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image.jpg
08 ctd--mini max--thuren 3" coils and shackles--4.56 gears and lockers in pw axles--some lights--afe intake system--bd super b turbo--Banks w/m Injection--Dynatrac Balljoints--bilstein 7100s--37" Cooper ST-Maxx--DOR Long arms--Carli track bar--Manual T-case swap--Full PW Under armor--PSC Hydro Assist
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Re: Diesel PW Build Thread

Postby Colibri » Mon Apr 24, 2017 9:42 am

Better you got it in the knee than the nuts lol. Glad you're alright man. A socket head cap screw in 1/2" works perfectly for a center pin replacement. It fits in the spring pad centering hole like a glove. Get busy on a shop, that's brutal weather, being out in that makes you Sasquatch bait lol
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Re: Diesel PW Build Thread

Postby nts007 » Mon Apr 24, 2017 3:45 pm

Can't work on the truck so went to the city and got me some bolts!!!

Talked to the spring shop and they will cut and drill me a leaf for $30 each. 60 per side. And build me a complete custom pack for about $800. Things to ponder
Attachments
IMG_4628.JPG
08 ctd--mini max--thuren 3" coils and shackles--4.56 gears and lockers in pw axles--some lights--afe intake system--bd super b turbo--Banks w/m Injection--Dynatrac Balljoints--bilstein 7100s--37" Cooper ST-Maxx--DOR Long arms--Carli track bar--Manual T-case swap--Full PW Under armor--PSC Hydro Assist
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