Boogie wagon take 2

Start your thread and show everyone your build out.
Colibri
1000_Posts
1000_Posts
Posts: 1677
Joined: Mon Jun 08, 2015 5:44 pm
Model Year: 2009

Re: Boogie wagon take 2

Post by Colibri » Tue Nov 20, 2018 8:37 pm

Is your oem pump held together with screws/bolts on the back?
That’s what my 09 had oem. It’s not great and it has no real room for improvement because of the body design.

A TC or CB pump is a direct swap on the 5.7 and probably is on yours as well. The TC case is held together with snap rings and consequently there’s more room for bigger more efficient pump gears. I’ve been running a TC pump for years now, a hotrodded TC is about half the price of oem and a much better pump.

You have to mount a remote reservoir preferably filtered and make some hydraulic lines. Otherwise it’s bolt in
Central Texas and Houston area
2009 5.7 auto quadcab
Carli 3” coils deaver leafs 3” kings with 4 tube bypass rear and fr/rr hydro bumps
Howe steering pump and gear with hydraulic ram assist
Custom tube bumpers and white knuckle sliders
Creative fab trussed axle. rem polished and cryoed 5.13 gears with arb lockers fr/rr
Sharadon stage 2 545rfe with 3000 stall edge converter
Lots of other stuff lol

Colibri
1000_Posts
1000_Posts
Posts: 1677
Joined: Mon Jun 08, 2015 5:44 pm
Model Year: 2009

Re: Boogie wagon take 2

Post by Colibri » Tue Nov 20, 2018 8:42 pm

However, over driving your pump with a smaller pulley will only change the rpm that it reaches full flow at, it won’t change the psi or gpm. The relief valve in your pump will still function normally so there’s no reason it should negatively impact pump life unless you boil and aerate the fluid. Can always throw a bigger cooler on too
Central Texas and Houston area
2009 5.7 auto quadcab
Carli 3” coils deaver leafs 3” kings with 4 tube bypass rear and fr/rr hydro bumps
Howe steering pump and gear with hydraulic ram assist
Custom tube bumpers and white knuckle sliders
Creative fab trussed axle. rem polished and cryoed 5.13 gears with arb lockers fr/rr
Sharadon stage 2 545rfe with 3000 stall edge converter
Lots of other stuff lol

User avatar
Reloaderguy
2000_Posts
2000_Posts
Posts: 2144
Joined: Tue Feb 09, 2016 8:06 am
Model Year: 2016
Location: Central Oregon

Re: Boogie wagon take 2

Post by Reloaderguy » Tue Nov 20, 2018 9:03 pm

Colibri wrote:
Tue Nov 20, 2018 7:59 pm
It’s about belt alignment relative to pump body mounting, they have some that are not offset as well.

They have some 4.5” 6 rib as well. That could be nice for turning those big tires in lower rpm use
Is the factory pulley offset?

Colibri
1000_Posts
1000_Posts
Posts: 1677
Joined: Mon Jun 08, 2015 5:44 pm
Model Year: 2009

Re: Boogie wagon take 2

Post by Colibri » Tue Nov 20, 2018 9:12 pm

On the 5.7 no, not sure on the 6.4, but it’s pretty easy to see if the pulley is centered on the axis of its hub or not. I didn’t intend to link the offset pulley specifically, sorry for any confusion on that.

I found my old oem pump a little while ago, and I can snap some pics of it next to a tc pump if it would be useful to you
Central Texas and Houston area
2009 5.7 auto quadcab
Carli 3” coils deaver leafs 3” kings with 4 tube bypass rear and fr/rr hydro bumps
Howe steering pump and gear with hydraulic ram assist
Custom tube bumpers and white knuckle sliders
Creative fab trussed axle. rem polished and cryoed 5.13 gears with arb lockers fr/rr
Sharadon stage 2 545rfe with 3000 stall edge converter
Lots of other stuff lol

User avatar
Reloaderguy
2000_Posts
2000_Posts
Posts: 2144
Joined: Tue Feb 09, 2016 8:06 am
Model Year: 2016
Location: Central Oregon

Re: Boogie wagon take 2

Post by Reloaderguy » Tue Nov 20, 2018 9:17 pm

Colibri wrote:
Tue Nov 20, 2018 9:12 pm
On the 5.7 no, not sure on the 6.4, but it’s pretty easy to see if the pulley is centered on the axis of its hub or not. I didn’t intend to link the offset pulley specifically, sorry for any confusion on that.

I found my old oem pump a little while ago, and I can snap some pics of it next to a tc pump if it would be useful to you
That would be great. I'll take a closer look at my pump tomorrow and get some photos.

Colibri
1000_Posts
1000_Posts
Posts: 1677
Joined: Mon Jun 08, 2015 5:44 pm
Model Year: 2009

Re: Boogie wagon take 2

Post by Colibri » Tue Nov 20, 2018 9:35 pm

Okay, I’ll get some pics tomorrow.
Central Texas and Houston area
2009 5.7 auto quadcab
Carli 3” coils deaver leafs 3” kings with 4 tube bypass rear and fr/rr hydro bumps
Howe steering pump and gear with hydraulic ram assist
Custom tube bumpers and white knuckle sliders
Creative fab trussed axle. rem polished and cryoed 5.13 gears with arb lockers fr/rr
Sharadon stage 2 545rfe with 3000 stall edge converter
Lots of other stuff lol

User avatar
DamageWagon
Vendor
Vendor
Posts: 2145
Joined: Tue Oct 11, 2016 1:21 am
Model Year: 2011
Location: Portland, OR
Contact:

Re: Boogie wagon take 2

Post by DamageWagon » Tue Nov 20, 2018 9:45 pm

Thanks for making this info public, I am very interested in what you find. PSC did not know if the pumps they had would bolt into the Hemi engines. I’d love to pair the pumps with the kits, I’m already working with them for the gearboxes/rams and mounting kits.

Colibri
1000_Posts
1000_Posts
Posts: 1677
Joined: Mon Jun 08, 2015 5:44 pm
Model Year: 2009

Re: Boogie wagon take 2

Post by Colibri » Wed Nov 21, 2018 12:43 pm

So here’s pics of the OEM pump side by side with a tc pump
Attachments
159A4A05-4EA3-4642-B961-CAC29BE58309.jpeg
They occupy roughly the same space
1AC796FD-7488-4314-B5FF-49019032F242.jpeg
Can play with pulley install depth to line things up easily
27581F24-8B50-4DEA-85EA-3925840CAEBD.jpeg
Oem is bolted together TC is held in with snap rings
Central Texas and Houston area
2009 5.7 auto quadcab
Carli 3” coils deaver leafs 3” kings with 4 tube bypass rear and fr/rr hydro bumps
Howe steering pump and gear with hydraulic ram assist
Custom tube bumpers and white knuckle sliders
Creative fab trussed axle. rem polished and cryoed 5.13 gears with arb lockers fr/rr
Sharadon stage 2 545rfe with 3000 stall edge converter
Lots of other stuff lol

Colibri
1000_Posts
1000_Posts
Posts: 1677
Joined: Mon Jun 08, 2015 5:44 pm
Model Year: 2009

Re: Boogie wagon take 2

Post by Colibri » Wed Nov 21, 2018 12:48 pm

Oem pump gear set is slightly larger displacement by the look of things, but the tc gear set is thicker in cross section.

Both function the same in the pump, but the pressure regulation is where the TC pump starts to gain the advantage
Attachments
9D3EAC96-BA13-4E91-8F97-2AA5AC751848.jpeg
Oem pump back cover and gear set removed
81A10E21-E464-47CB-8668-FDF5EBD42CDD.jpeg
TC pump gear set removed. The rear of the gear set forms the back of the pump instead of having another piece like the oem
2F6CAC2E-8491-43F2-B5C2-9C0CD18915B7.jpeg
Central Texas and Houston area
2009 5.7 auto quadcab
Carli 3” coils deaver leafs 3” kings with 4 tube bypass rear and fr/rr hydro bumps
Howe steering pump and gear with hydraulic ram assist
Custom tube bumpers and white knuckle sliders
Creative fab trussed axle. rem polished and cryoed 5.13 gears with arb lockers fr/rr
Sharadon stage 2 545rfe with 3000 stall edge converter
Lots of other stuff lol

Colibri
1000_Posts
1000_Posts
Posts: 1677
Joined: Mon Jun 08, 2015 5:44 pm
Model Year: 2009

Re: Boogie wagon take 2

Post by Colibri » Wed Nov 21, 2018 12:51 pm

Some side by side pics of internal pieces. Oem on left tc on right
Attachments
4F3370BE-A290-4808-A9AF-DBD3A6DE7642.jpeg
Rotor housings
8CFBC89A-FCCB-4BEE-B699-0F3E06A52BE7.jpeg
B93A88F5-73E4-4576-8193-2023A55B60FE.jpeg
Rotor bodies
A88AC258-8BEE-494B-9E4C-282D0EFF523C.jpeg
Central Texas and Houston area
2009 5.7 auto quadcab
Carli 3” coils deaver leafs 3” kings with 4 tube bypass rear and fr/rr hydro bumps
Howe steering pump and gear with hydraulic ram assist
Custom tube bumpers and white knuckle sliders
Creative fab trussed axle. rem polished and cryoed 5.13 gears with arb lockers fr/rr
Sharadon stage 2 545rfe with 3000 stall edge converter
Lots of other stuff lol

Colibri
1000_Posts
1000_Posts
Posts: 1677
Joined: Mon Jun 08, 2015 5:44 pm
Model Year: 2009

Re: Boogie wagon take 2

Post by Colibri » Wed Nov 21, 2018 12:56 pm

Vanes are roughly the same size.

The oem pump uses a 3 piece flow control design with a piston sliding in a machined bore and a coil spring that is housed in the output fitting of the pump

The TC pump uses a machined plate and thick coil spring inside the body of the pump to regulate flow.
Attachments
8CD81BC1-3F91-420B-BCC8-CC270D75B48A.jpeg
Vanes are very similar
3E8E2C2A-A13A-4707-B74C-60ADADCDE8C7.jpeg
Side by side comparison
6D54F2D6-C3DB-4387-B67C-193D84284F8F.jpeg
Fitting piston and spring to regulate oem pump
236709E1-1E6C-48DF-9E1D-280C861B5DE4.jpeg
Machined flow plateand heavy duty spring internal to pump body.
Central Texas and Houston area
2009 5.7 auto quadcab
Carli 3” coils deaver leafs 3” kings with 4 tube bypass rear and fr/rr hydro bumps
Howe steering pump and gear with hydraulic ram assist
Custom tube bumpers and white knuckle sliders
Creative fab trussed axle. rem polished and cryoed 5.13 gears with arb lockers fr/rr
Sharadon stage 2 545rfe with 3000 stall edge converter
Lots of other stuff lol

Colibri
1000_Posts
1000_Posts
Posts: 1677
Joined: Mon Jun 08, 2015 5:44 pm
Model Year: 2009

Re: Boogie wagon take 2

Post by Colibri » Wed Nov 21, 2018 1:00 pm

The TC pump uses sealed ball bearings and oem seems to use a mix of sealed bearings and bushings. Flow control strategies are different with the TC being superior in my opinion. All together the oem pump seems decent but doesn’t have the aftermarket support to build past stock requirements.
Attachments
444AB9FF-5781-4C0E-90D7-366F112C777D.jpeg
Flow control side by side
Central Texas and Houston area
2009 5.7 auto quadcab
Carli 3” coils deaver leafs 3” kings with 4 tube bypass rear and fr/rr hydro bumps
Howe steering pump and gear with hydraulic ram assist
Custom tube bumpers and white knuckle sliders
Creative fab trussed axle. rem polished and cryoed 5.13 gears with arb lockers fr/rr
Sharadon stage 2 545rfe with 3000 stall edge converter
Lots of other stuff lol

User avatar
Reloaderguy
2000_Posts
2000_Posts
Posts: 2144
Joined: Tue Feb 09, 2016 8:06 am
Model Year: 2016
Location: Central Oregon

Re: Boogie wagon take 2

Post by Reloaderguy » Wed Nov 21, 2018 1:22 pm

My pump looks like the OEM pump on the left.

Colibri
1000_Posts
1000_Posts
Posts: 1677
Joined: Mon Jun 08, 2015 5:44 pm
Model Year: 2009

Re: Boogie wagon take 2

Post by Colibri » Wed Nov 21, 2018 2:03 pm

Then you can easily swap to a tc pump or use the pulley from one to over drive your stock pump
Central Texas and Houston area
2009 5.7 auto quadcab
Carli 3” coils deaver leafs 3” kings with 4 tube bypass rear and fr/rr hydro bumps
Howe steering pump and gear with hydraulic ram assist
Custom tube bumpers and white knuckle sliders
Creative fab trussed axle. rem polished and cryoed 5.13 gears with arb lockers fr/rr
Sharadon stage 2 545rfe with 3000 stall edge converter
Lots of other stuff lol

User avatar
Reloaderguy
2000_Posts
2000_Posts
Posts: 2144
Joined: Tue Feb 09, 2016 8:06 am
Model Year: 2016
Location: Central Oregon

Re: Boogie wagon take 2

Post by Reloaderguy » Wed Nov 21, 2018 3:28 pm

Colibri wrote:
Tue Nov 20, 2018 7:13 pm
This is a good starting point, trailgear makes a few different sized 6rib pulleys in anodized aluminum for that size shaft. It’s standard TC pump diameter so there are a shit ton of pulleys available.


https://www.trail-gear.com/index.php/po ... 6-rib.html

Psc also has several cb/tc pump pulleys available. Here’s a 5 inches which would be a mild but probably noticeable change

https://www.pscmotorsports.com/motorspo ... ffset.html
Thanks again for your help. I ordered from TG because PSC wanted $20 to ship a single pulley.

The next question is can I reuse my serpentine belt or is the smaller pulley too small for the adjustment?

Colibri
1000_Posts
1000_Posts
Posts: 1677
Joined: Mon Jun 08, 2015 5:44 pm
Model Year: 2009

Re: Boogie wagon take 2

Post by Colibri » Wed Nov 21, 2018 3:43 pm

That we’ll have to see, I don’t know. But serpentine belts can be had in just about any length you could need.

You’ll want a 6 rib belt and likely 1 to 1.5 inches shorter than stock if you find it necessary. The numbers on your belt will tell you it’s oal so it’s easy to ask for a specific smaller size by length. Gates is typically the oem supplier
Central Texas and Houston area
2009 5.7 auto quadcab
Carli 3” coils deaver leafs 3” kings with 4 tube bypass rear and fr/rr hydro bumps
Howe steering pump and gear with hydraulic ram assist
Custom tube bumpers and white knuckle sliders
Creative fab trussed axle. rem polished and cryoed 5.13 gears with arb lockers fr/rr
Sharadon stage 2 545rfe with 3000 stall edge converter
Lots of other stuff lol

User avatar
Reloaderguy
2000_Posts
2000_Posts
Posts: 2144
Joined: Tue Feb 09, 2016 8:06 am
Model Year: 2016
Location: Central Oregon

Re: Boogie wagon take 2

Post by Reloaderguy » Wed Nov 21, 2018 3:57 pm

Colibri wrote:
Wed Nov 21, 2018 3:43 pm
That we’ll have to see, I don’t know. But serpentine belts can be had in just about any length you could need.

You’ll want a 6 rib belt and likely 1 to 1.5 inches shorter than stock if you find it necessary. The numbers on your belt will tell you it’s oal so it’s easy to ask for a specific smaller size by length. Gates is typically the oem supplier
NAPA is down the street so I'm sure it won't be too difficult.

2wagons1driveway
2000_Posts
2000_Posts
Posts: 2970
Joined: Wed Jan 16, 2013 6:55 pm
Location: ontario canada

Re: Boogie wagon take 2

Post by 2wagons1driveway » Wed Nov 21, 2018 5:49 pm

I think the tensioner should take up the extra slack of the smaller pulley, overall it’s what .5” smaller??


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
if guns kill people
pencils mispell words
cars make people drive drunk
and spoons made rosie o'donnel fat

"The one thing you realize when you aquire your trade standard is you realistically don't know Anything"

Colibri
1000_Posts
1000_Posts
Posts: 1677
Joined: Mon Jun 08, 2015 5:44 pm
Model Year: 2009

Re: Boogie wagon take 2

Post by Colibri » Wed Nov 21, 2018 5:57 pm

I’m inclined to agree Lee, but I guess we’ll see. I may order up one of those pulleys myself to experiment with
Central Texas and Houston area
2009 5.7 auto quadcab
Carli 3” coils deaver leafs 3” kings with 4 tube bypass rear and fr/rr hydro bumps
Howe steering pump and gear with hydraulic ram assist
Custom tube bumpers and white knuckle sliders
Creative fab trussed axle. rem polished and cryoed 5.13 gears with arb lockers fr/rr
Sharadon stage 2 545rfe with 3000 stall edge converter
Lots of other stuff lol

2wagons1driveway
2000_Posts
2000_Posts
Posts: 2970
Joined: Wed Jan 16, 2013 6:55 pm
Location: ontario canada

Re: Boogie wagon take 2

Post by 2wagons1driveway » Thu Nov 22, 2018 9:15 am

Let me know if it helps because I’m interested in one now as well with my stock setup to see how it would help...


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
if guns kill people
pencils mispell words
cars make people drive drunk
and spoons made rosie o'donnel fat

"The one thing you realize when you aquire your trade standard is you realistically don't know Anything"

User avatar
Reloaderguy
2000_Posts
2000_Posts
Posts: 2144
Joined: Tue Feb 09, 2016 8:06 am
Model Year: 2016
Location: Central Oregon

Re: Boogie wagon take 2

Post by Reloaderguy » Fri Nov 30, 2018 1:01 pm

I ordered a 4.5" pulley from Trail Gear and it is a direct fit. The issue I was feeling was at idle RPM's if I steered quickly the wheel felt like I was running into the steering lock. Any throttle at all, or turning more slowly, and the feeling would go away. With the new pulley, you can still feel some resistance but it doesn't just stop. Again, add some throttle and the steering feels normal without any resistance. I suspect the only way to completely eliminate the at-idle flow issue is to change the pump. For $60 and 30 minutes of time this is a economical compromise to a pump that would require some custom work and cost hundreds of dollars.

Thanks again, Colibri.

ETA: The stock belt works fine.
Last edited by Reloaderguy on Fri Nov 30, 2018 1:27 pm, edited 1 time in total.

User avatar
DamageWagon
Vendor
Vendor
Posts: 2145
Joined: Tue Oct 11, 2016 1:21 am
Model Year: 2011
Location: Portland, OR
Contact:

Re: Boogie wagon take 2

Post by DamageWagon » Fri Nov 30, 2018 1:09 pm

Tim have you ever seen an accumulator used in power steering, in an application this small?

Basically a pressurized tank with oil in it, a dividing bladder and a nitrogen charge to keep it pressurized, made up for lack of pump flow while punches were in use. I think that might be a 100% solution here. Doesn’t even need to be large, I could measure the displacement of the ram (limiting factor) but I think we are talking only a few cubic inches from lock to lock.

Tim you have a low pressure accumulator for your engine oil don’t you? Same theory but higher pressure.

Colibri
1000_Posts
1000_Posts
Posts: 1677
Joined: Mon Jun 08, 2015 5:44 pm
Model Year: 2009

Re: Boogie wagon take 2

Post by Colibri » Fri Nov 30, 2018 1:36 pm

DamageWagon wrote:
Fri Nov 30, 2018 1:09 pm
Tim have you ever seen an accumulator used in power steering, in an application this small?

Basically a pressurized tank with oil in it, a dividing bladder and a nitrogen charge to keep it pressurized, made up for lack of pump flow while punches were in use. I think that might be a 100% solution here. Doesn’t even need to be large, I could measure the displacement of the ram (limiting factor) but I think we are talking only a few cubic inches from lock to lock.

Tim you have a low pressure accumulator for your engine oil don’t you? Same theory but higher pressure.
You know I never have seen anyone do that Marcus, that’s a very interesting idea. It’s pretty common in industrial applications though, but hasn’t made its way to the aftermarket yet.

Yep I have an accusump oil accumulator, I can definitely see the benefit of the principal in power steering use.

I may be about to try a completely different pump for the first time. Apparently the psc XR series CBR pump shares the same mounting dimensions as a TC but has the larger internals out of a P series pump, or something close to that. Supposed to flow about 30% more at idle/low rpm than a TC. If that works out maybe you can offer that as an upgrade to a smaller pulley on a stock pump?
Central Texas and Houston area
2009 5.7 auto quadcab
Carli 3” coils deaver leafs 3” kings with 4 tube bypass rear and fr/rr hydro bumps
Howe steering pump and gear with hydraulic ram assist
Custom tube bumpers and white knuckle sliders
Creative fab trussed axle. rem polished and cryoed 5.13 gears with arb lockers fr/rr
Sharadon stage 2 545rfe with 3000 stall edge converter
Lots of other stuff lol

User avatar
DamageWagon
Vendor
Vendor
Posts: 2145
Joined: Tue Oct 11, 2016 1:21 am
Model Year: 2011
Location: Portland, OR
Contact:

Re: Boogie wagon take 2

Post by DamageWagon » Fri Nov 30, 2018 7:57 pm

Colibri wrote:
DamageWagon wrote:
Fri Nov 30, 2018 1:09 pm
Tim have you ever seen an accumulator used in power steering, in an application this small?

Basically a pressurized tank with oil in it, a dividing bladder and a nitrogen charge to keep it pressurized, made up for lack of pump flow while punches were in use. I think that might be a 100% solution here. Doesn’t even need to be large, I could measure the displacement of the ram (limiting factor) but I think we are talking only a few cubic inches from lock to lock.

Tim you have a low pressure accumulator for your engine oil don’t you? Same theory but higher pressure.
You know I never have seen anyone do that Marcus, that’s a very interesting idea. It’s pretty common in industrial applications though, but hasn’t made its way to the aftermarket yet.

Yep I have an accusump oil accumulator, I can definitely see the benefit of the principal in power steering use.

I may be about to try a completely different pump for the first time. Apparently the psc XR series CBR pump shares the same mounting dimensions as a TC but has the larger internals out of a P series pump, or something close to that. Supposed to flow about 30% more at idle/low rpm than a TC. If that works out maybe you can offer that as an upgrade to a smaller pulley on a stock pump?
I think an Accumulator would be a game changer. More so than a pump. I spec’d out some Parker accumulators, they’ve got .32 and .5 liter accumulators that would probably fit perfect. That is almost a plug and play scenario.

If you’re doing a pump did you check out the XR Monster pump?? 10 gallons per minute Image

Colibri
1000_Posts
1000_Posts
Posts: 1677
Joined: Mon Jun 08, 2015 5:44 pm
Model Year: 2009

Re: Boogie wagon take 2

Post by Colibri » Fri Nov 30, 2018 8:26 pm

I’d be all over beta testing an accumulator if you want to play around with the idea? What’s one of those .5 liter Parker’s run? I assume you’d need a one way valve upstream of it to keep it from backfeeding the pump? I’m likely upping my pressure side hose to -8 anyway so new Plumbing is in the works, it would be easy enough to throw an accumulator on there too.
Central Texas and Houston area
2009 5.7 auto quadcab
Carli 3” coils deaver leafs 3” kings with 4 tube bypass rear and fr/rr hydro bumps
Howe steering pump and gear with hydraulic ram assist
Custom tube bumpers and white knuckle sliders
Creative fab trussed axle. rem polished and cryoed 5.13 gears with arb lockers fr/rr
Sharadon stage 2 545rfe with 3000 stall edge converter
Lots of other stuff lol

Post Reply